Online Poker Forum - Full Tilt Bans OPR from posting player rankings!!!!

Bullmer · High Card Joined: 05 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

If Sharkscope and other databases are charging money for access to their databases, and people are paying good money to access them, isn't it obvious that this information (even OPR's) is altering the outcome of games played on Full Tilt Poker? Why would people pay all this money for this information, unless it helped them increase their profits?

I do understand that people like to view their stats, the stats of their friends, and the stats of professionals. However, people should have the right to privacy, too. People have had their stats used against them too much.

Even if you disable your stats at Sharkscope, I've been told that people who subscribe can still view our stats. Is this correct?

Solutions???

1) Players could go buy software to track their own results. Hold'em Manager, Poker Tracker 3, and many other programs are quite useful just for this reason alone (let alone using it to find and plug leaks).

2) Someone could write a free (shareware) program to track personal results. I'm guessing someone has already done this. The software could also create text output for each report, too. This way you can share your results with your friends (ex. send them an email with your report attached) if you choose to do so.

3) Players could use a spreadsheet or a log book (pencil and paper) to track their own results.

4) Full Tilt creates a database for their players who wish to be exluded from ALL databases (basically a one-stop shop for players to attain privacy). Full Tilt then shares the list of usernames that wish to be excluded from all tracking sites. Full Tilt is also granted access to each private (pay) and public database, so they can audit their site. This way, Full Tilt can make sure that players wishing to be excluded are protected.

5) Full Tilt could break down and make a web-based solution, so people can view their long-term results on their site. This could fall in line with their Full Tilt Poker Academy concept, where players can see stats that might help them plug leaks.

Any of these 5 solutions seem reasonable. I'm sure there are other alternatives as well.

There is absolutely no need for public databases of any sort. The only exception might be is if there are leagues/contests where top players are battling it out for a prize (or fame). But, if that is the case, then it should be on a volunteer basis, where the players enroll for it. Full Tilt could also create a feature where people can set up their own leagues/leaderboards (oh wait, they have kind of already done that).

Remember, some players are using these databases to:
- Select softer STT's.

- Figure out who has more/less experience.

- Adjust their play to (likely) tight/loose play during the early/middle/late stages of a tournament (you can tell this by how often they get knocked out in the early/middle/late stages).

- Who has more late stage (final table) experience in MTT's, when big $$$ is at stake.

- Berate/Harrass players who are poor/new players.

Final point. There is a cost to Full Tilt Poker for building and maintaining the servers that upload and download information. If tracking sites are constantly accessing each and every tournament, there is a cost to Full Tilt Poker, which Full Tilt has every right to protect. Server maintenance and generating enough throughput for uploading/downloading is not cheap. Now, I'm not going to break out my violin for Full Tilt Poker, but you get my point.

Anyways, I hope Full Tilt is fair, and aggressively protects our privacy by cracking down on all these sites. Bottom line is the poker results should be determined by our table reads, not by reading stats generated on a website.

Good luck at the tables,
Bullmer

drewg22 · Full House Joined: 25 May 2008 Posts: 238

Kam1972 · Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 5:24 pm Post subject:

Bullmer · High Card Joined: 05 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

SmellsLikeDonk · Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:31 pm Post subject:

phareal15 · Posted: Tue Jun 23, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject:

PokerDB

Bullmer · High Card Joined: 05 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

drewg22 · Full House Joined: 25 May 2008 Posts: 238

PinkSharkMark · High Card Joined: 22 Feb 2008 Posts: 10

Bullmer, a couple of points:

My understanding is that Sharkscope goes beyond what OPR does. That it provides data (or provides an analysis of that data) which OPR does not, and this is why people pay money for Sharkscope subscriptions rather than just use OPR for free. So comparing OPR to Sharkscope is disingenuous.

Next, you claim that people who just want to track their own stats can use a couple of commercially available programs. Problem us, these programs are Windows only programs, and Full Tilt has a higher percentage of Mac users - BY FAR - than any other poker site. As a matter of fact, Full Tilt has more Mac users than all other sites put together. It is the one market segment of online poker players that Full Tilt owns almost completely, because they are the only site (so far) with a client which is native Mac. Mac users can check OPR for their stats, but Mac users can't run the programs you named. Or run any other computer-based (as opposed to web-based) tracker.

Third, I don't think you grasp the complaint being made here by a lot of us. I don't want to know just that I am getting better or worse - I can see that from the size of my bankroll, duh! So the programs which track just my own performance isn't gonna turn my crank. What I want to know is -

How am I doing compared to everyone ELSE out there?

What I get a kick out of is knowing that I managed to improve my game to the point that I am "better" (by OPR's idiosyncratic rating, anyway) than 88% or 93% or whatever of the rest of the folks out there. And if you happen to think that makes me a shallow or petty person, tough noogies, I don't care. It is completely normal for people to want to know where they stand. That's one reason why firms do employee reviews and why schools post test results publicly.

Finally, you make way too much of the supposed "hassle" that players need to go through to blind OPR to their stats. It's considerably easier to get OPR to stop tracking you than it is to get money into and out of a Full Tilt account, for example. Or even to open a Full Tilt account in the first place. And of course, Full Tilt could easily include a hotlink to the OPR "unlisting" address with every "Welcome to Full Tilt Poker" e-mail it sends to new members, and do a mass e-mail to all existing members explaining to them that Full Tilt thinks they are being taken advantage of by OPR and recommending that everybody "blind" OPR immediately. They will have then fulfilled all possible legal obligations to their membership.

You haven't thought this through all the way.

Pete D · Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 4:40 am Post subject:

It looks like people are getting responses from FT such as this one (copied from 2+2):

Your feedback is much appreciated, and we encourage you to always let us know how you feel about your online poker experience. Many of our features were created based on feedback from our players.

As mentioned in our previous email, we agree that Official Poker Rankings provides a great service to its customers, and we fully understand the value of the information they provide. Rest assured, we are currently working towards a resolution with Official Poker Rankings that will suit all the parties involved. We hope to have the matter resolved as quickly as possible.

We appreciate your business, as well as your patience and understanding. If there's anything else we can assist you with, please let us know.

I assume FT and OPR will find a resolution sometime in the future. But this still opens the door to so many questions:

1. What data is/was considered giving some players an "unfair advantage"? Although OPR does technically violate FT's "terms of service", FT has acknowledged that it provides a "great service" and they're working on a resolution. I would not be surprised to see the TOS edited in some fashion in the future.

2. How does FT stop someone else from collecting data that they consider "unfair"? Maybe FT should not allow player's hole cards to be revealed to anyone except those who are dealt cards in the hand? I realize that opens up a whole new can of worms.

3. Does FT have the right to stop someone from collecting data that can be seen publically? For example, is it unfair or unethical for Phil Ivey to hire a person to collect data on Tom Dwan during his heads-up challenge w/ Antonius? How is this any different than Ivey studying video of Dwan on HSP or PAD? How is this different than a football team hiring coaches and advanced scouts to analyze video of their upcoming opponent or a baseball team scouting a player and recognizing he'll often chase pitches out of the strike zone?

So, where does FT draw the line?

There are circumstances that are clear of wrong doing... such as having one or more of your buddies in a ring game to share hole cards with... this is nearly the equivalent seeing your opponent's hole cards... sometimes knowing what he does not have can be just as powerful as knowing what he has.

But data collecting is a very hazy shade of grey and in that heavy, grey fog, it's uncertain where that line in the sand is... it should be interesting to see how this all shakes out.

Kam1972 · Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:15 am Post subject:

Hi Bullmer

I just have to assume you are overly paranoid about OPR from a personal stand point, and thats all well and fine and you have the option to remove your own personal stats from being viewed, as does any other player, which should be more than enough without banning the whole site.

You state that the more data on OPR the more you know about them. Yes, that is true, but putting that into real context as to how good a player they are, or how they play the game is IMPOSSIBLE. You get year long data on a player that shows some months in profit, others in negative and maybe a slightly negative ROI you aren't going to know really anything much about them, and certainly you will have NO clue about how they play their game at the table. You can't get that data from there its just not possible.

I'm not saying OPR gives zero possible data you could use to a small degree, but if you gain anything from it then it really is a very small degree of help, and only in the case of people with truely woeful records and ROI. And if those players have that bad an ROI their play is going to be so woeful you will spot them in the first few hands of your table when you see them playing K2os etc.

Certainly there are tools that provide far more data in my opinon that are still being allowed, and so I seriously doubt OPR has been banned because of information it gives being a huge edge to players. That just stinks to high heaven when sharkscope is still ok, and PT 3 and holdem manager are still ok etc.

Think being able to hide your own data is plenty fine enough.

On teh subject of not attacking bad players. This is always going to happen, and I'll be first to admit I've done it myself sometimes, and I'd be surprised if most players at some point or other have not said something after a bad day of bad beats etc. Sure, most times you suck it up and ignore the beat and move on, but occasionally it happens, and will always happen. Arguements at poker tables are part of poker just like any other competition at times. Sure you shouldn't tap the tank as the saying goes, but sometimes that isn't always as easy as it sounds, and in most cases you don't scare them off either as they won the hand and so normally think that puts them in the right to keep playing that way no matter what you say to them. Smile

Pete D · Posted: Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject:

TheFlashOne · Banned Joined: 25 Aug 2008 Posts: 341

I thought this would have been resolved by now.....

Zarken_Ventreth · Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 3:33 am Post subject:

skikitheking · Posted: Mon Jun 29, 2009 5:07 am Post subject:

If pokerstars would add some more tourneys on european times

i would leave full tilt right away

Online Poker Forum at Full Tilt Poker