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bottlecapthief
Kleptomaniac
Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 4890
Location: At the craps table where I have an edge
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 Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:24 pm Post subject: 25PLO, First to act on drawy turn |
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Full Tilt Poker $0.10/$0.25 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players -
The Official Hand History
MP: $5.50
CO: $8.55
BTN: $11.45
Hero (SB): $43.15
BB: $31.35
UTG: $24.50
Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is SB with K  6 Q Q 
UTG calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO raises to $1.10, 1 fold, Hero calls $1, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.85
Flop: ($3.55) 6  9  Q (3 players)
Hero bets $2.95, UTG calls $2.95, CO calls $2.95
Turn: ($12.40) 8 (3 players)
Hero ????
The turn is not ideal. If I lead for a pot, I could only get min-shoved. Is firing about a $5-$7 bet and folding to resistance best or should I just take the super-aggro Pot/call all-in or check and see what happens?
UTG is 54/6.5/.39
CO is 74/23/1
Both over about 50 hand samples. |
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tracysanders
I EAT MTTs
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 8604
Location: ANOTHER FUQQUIN MINCASH
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| Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I pot the flop and the turn, make them pay the max to see the cards if they do have a stright on the turn you still have a decents redraw. |
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folcl em
Pair
Joined: 27 Jan 2009
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:35 am Post subject: |
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I dont know what 54/6.5/.39 and 74/23/1 means. But since this a low stakes game I'm going to assume we have a loose aggressive player and loose passive player. I'd appreciate it if someone can explain those stats. Since I'm asking a question let me throw in a few more. I know LAG stands for a loose aggressive player but what letters stand for a loose passive player. Also, what does OP mean? I sometimes run in to that and have no idea what it means.
I have to agree with tracysanders on this one. If youve read any of my previous posts I'm tired of check calling or check folding everytime a scare card hits. Against low stakes players you could very well still have the best hand. They could be chasing the flush draw and the other might have a higher gut shot straight draw. Because you wont lose your whole stack, bet the pot and make them pay to draw out on you. If one of them has the straight and reraises you I think your pot committed to call to draw to your full house or quads. If they just call your pot bet raise you would think you still have the best hand and if another scare card comes on the river I would have to check and hope for the other player to check but if he bets I'm pot commited to make a crying call just in case he's bluffing.
If you check or put a small raies one of these players is going to see that as weakness and will bet or check raise you unless you are going to check fold. If you check call the turn your the one chasing and can't call a river bet if you miss your full house and lost more money calling the turn bet. I guess if you checked the turn it might go check check to the river but I wouldnt count on it. |
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dodge these
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1052
Location: undisclosed
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| Posted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Yeah I think I pot here but am not happy about it. Odds are good that you will get co to go along with a lot bad hands and that gives you better odds even if the other guy shoves, but the problem is you do commit yourself to calling any shove which you'd have to assume has you beat. Then I would also consider c/f if they just bet nuts, or c/b a small amount on blank river as it may get a call from something that was chasing flush but caught 2 pair, or best case flush hits and u hit boat, where I woudl think yhou're staking someone. I woudl kind of mix it up depending on what you have been typically doing in these spots. |
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bottlecapthief
Kleptomaniac
Joined: 10 Oct 2005
Posts: 4890
Location: At the craps table where I have an edge
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:26 am Post subject: |
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| folcl em wrote: |
| I dont know what 54/6.5/.39 and 74/23/1 means. But since this a low stakes game I'm going to assume we have a loose aggressive player and loose passive player. I'd appreciate it if someone can explain those stats. Since I'm asking a question let me throw in a few more. I know LAG stands for a loose aggressive player but what letters stand for a loose passive player. Also, what does OP mean? |
The first number is a players VPIP, or Voluntarily Put $ In Pot. This is anytime a player plays a hand not from the blind.
The second number is Pre-flop raise %.
The third number is Total Agression Factor, which is the number of bets and raises divided by the number of calls.
OP stands for Original Post, or Original Poster.
I hold another one of my boat outs in the 6 if I do pot it and get shoved. Does that factor into our decision at all? Assuming both villains paired nothing on the board(unlikely), and had non-straight flush draws, we would have 9 outs. |
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Pete D
Pistol Pete
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 1885
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:45 am Post subject: Re: 25PLO, First to act on drawy turn |
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| bottlecapthief wrote: |
| The turn is not ideal. |
BCT- Before leading out on this flop, think about your turn move and the size of the stacks you're against, assuming a smooth call like this one.
You said the turn is not ideal and I agree. But not many are ideal... only 10 cards (non-diamond 2, 3 or 4, plus the case Q) allow you to still hold the nuts. And 6 others (6 or 9) give you the nut boat. So, you could say 16 are ideal, which means 2 out of 3 times you'll be in an awkward spot on the turn after flopping the nuts.
That said, I like a check or a smallish ($1-$2) bet on the flop. Here's why:
- Leading out a pot-sized bet on this board screams "I've got a set" or "a real powerful draw"... now, your opponents can draw relatively cheaply to their straight and/or flush... they'll be going nowhere with Ax of diamonds or TJ.
- Gives you the opportunity to check raise or re-raise... ideally, you want your opponent to commit >50% of their stack on this flop. If you get smooth called after the check-raise (or re-raise), this makes the turn play easier... i.e., a shove on any turn card is probably automatic, even if a stinkin' diamond rears its ugly head as you have about a 20% chance to fill up on the river. Being out of position w/ this hand, I think it's preferable to have either a very large or smallish pot going into the turn... I don't want to be "stuck in the middle" having to make a tough decision on a medium-sized pot, like you the spot you were in here.
- Ok, say it gets checked around on the flop. And that same card comes out on the turn... now, you're not committed to this pot, leaving you options if you get raised on the turn. And even showing some weakness (say, w/ a check/call) on the turn is not terrible either because your hand is now well disguised and you can get paid off huge if you boat up on the river.
As played, I tend to check when I'm in these spots, but I don't think that's the best play, so I'd have to agree w/ Dodge & Tracy... "bet pot, but I don't like it."... don't like it because I think TJ or a flush draw by at least one opponent is almost a certainty here... the flush draw can escape and the TJ will raise us all-in and have us in bad shape.
This hand reminds me a little of one that Daniel Negreanu discussed on his June 16 video blog last year. At the 2008 WSOP, Phil Galfond checked the nuts (top set) OOP on a drawy board after the turn card fell (KJ83 w/ 2 diamonds)... Galfond got a chance to check raise all-in when Daniel bet thinking his middle 2-pair and straight draw was good. Galfond explained later to Negreanu about wanting the pot to be either somewhat small or very large (all-in) before that river card came out. |
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