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axiomtek
High Card
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
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 Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:09 pm Post subject: Poker etiquette: mucking during showdown? |
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I'm playing poker. On the river my opponent bets and I call. I say "I have top pair, but my kicker isnt good" feeling I may have lost and my opponent says "nice hand" and mucks.
Now, it is a showdown and I know that I am entitled to see his hand, but if I request it it's seen as rude & a violation of poker etiquette.
I think this is wrong.
It's my view that its actually rude to muck, because essentially you're saying "I am supposed to show you my hand, but I don't really care, and you aint going to see my hand so suck it" which is basically depriving me and the table of information that we are ENTITLED to get. That to me is MORE rude.
I understand that some say you're rubbing it in my having him show his hand or even bluff, but I mean that's poker - you lose sometimes.
At my local casino I often will ask the dealer to show his hand, and for some reason people will get upset at me - i think they should get upset with the mucker.
Thoughts? |
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Flying_Kiwi
Bird of Mystery
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 8456
Location: Spewing bonus $
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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Just don't turn your hand over until they do. If they were last to bet, they should be tabling their hand first anyway. I encounter this in home games all the time, where someone bets, I call, then they say "What have you got?" I just say "I called you." and wait for them to turn their hand over. It's kinda douchey, but it avoids the bet/muck situation.
And so on the reverse, when I'm called I just insta-fast-roll my hand over so I'm not that guy.
Last edited by Flying_Kiwi on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8182
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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If you ask to see the hand, it's live. If he backed into a better hand than yours, he wins the pot. Let him muck, drag your pot, move on to the next hand. What information do you need to know? He had something worse than top pair. If you want him to show his hand first, don't announce your hand.
Last edited by IABoomer on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MISISIPI-BECK
resident redneck
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 1995
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
| Just don't turn your hand over until they do. If they were last to bet, they should be tabling their hand first anyway. I encounter this in home games all the time, where someone bets, I call, then they say "What have you got?" I just say "I called you." and wait for them to turn their hand over. It's kinda douchey, but it avoids the bet/muck situation. |
yeah....i ran into this once in a live game...threw a fit and was told by the dealer,that in this situation,once i show my cards im giveing him the option to concede.....not sure about rules or house rules here but would love to know myself what the rules say! |
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axiomtek
High Card
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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I just show my hand. It's a SHOWdown.
Also, Ive seen countless examples where someone MUCKS the best hand. Phil Ivey did it during the WSOP 09, someone once mucked his hand when he woulda split it with 10 high, and ive seen many times where people had flushes or straights but didnt know and mucked.
I think we need to start a movement to reverse the official etiquette on mucking when you're supposed to show. |
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MISISIPI-BECK
resident redneck
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 1995
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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| axiomtek wrote: |
I just show my hand. It's a SHOWdown.
Also, Ive seen countless examples where someone MUCKS the best hand. Phil Ivey did it during the WSOP 09, someone once mucked his hand when he woulda split it with 10 high, and ive seen many times where people had flushes or straights but didnt know and mucked.
I think we need to start a movement to reverse the official etiquette on mucking when you're supposed to show. |
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Flying_Kiwi
Bird of Mystery
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 8456
Location: Spewing bonus $
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
| If you ask to see the hand, it's live. If he backed into a better hand than yours, he wins the pot. Let him muck, drag your pot, move on to the next hand. What information do you need to know? He had something worse than top pair. If you want him to show his hand first, don't announce your hand. |
I think it's kinda a close one, because although you're running the risk they actually have the best hand - I'd say it's small - and it can be really valuable to know how much someone bets on the river with a weak hand, or how they played it in general. And if you've called, you've paid to know this stuff. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8182
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| OP is bringing this behavior on himself. If you're calling a bet, don't then announce your hand. His acting out of turn at showdown by saying "I've got top pair" opens the door to this kind of behavior. |
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Flying_Kiwi
Bird of Mystery
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 8456
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Good point. |
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axiomtek
High Card
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Acting out of turn? I thought a showdown was after the hand, like there is not "acting" after the river. Also, I'm not talking about him mucking a loser, but if a person was caught bluffing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ - Her'es a relevant video that kind touches on this subject |
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MISISIPI-BECK
resident redneck
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 1995
Location: Dirty South
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| I think it would be a great idiea to REQUIRE a poker etiquette class before playing live.Haveing said that,let me say this,if im playing you live,and you let me something is tilting you,im gonna do it. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8182
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| You called. He's supposed to show. You don't have to show or say anything. By saying "I've got top pair" you open the door to him mucking a hand worse than top pair. STFU and this won't be a problem. |
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bleffo19
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 1507
Location: SYD, Australia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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i ran into a similar situation, but from the flipside.
at a home game, i tried a bluff on the river, and got called. i insta-mucked as soon as my opponent's said "i call". my friend showed his hand, but then went to try and get my hand out of the muck to see it. i stopped him, saying that he has no right to see my hand. he argued that he did, and i said that although he called me, i had mucked my hand, which voids me of all rights to the pot if i did actually have the best hand. once a hand is mucked nobody has a right to look for it.
idk - who's right in this situation? |
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marsupial311
Royal Flush
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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If you muck, you concede the hand. You don't have to ever show.
On the flip side, if someone else looks like they mucked, hold on to your cards until they push the pot to you. Some people are terrible angle shooters. |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8182
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/rrpprinter.php
| Robert's Rules wrote: |
THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)
3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.
4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player's hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player's hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.
7. If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.
8. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all-in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. |
Section 5 says he's in the right to ask to see the hand, but your cards are live. Of course, this is offset by the whole idea of "house rules apply" but in the absence of a specific house rule, Robert's Rules function as the status quo. |
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