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tracysanders
I EAT MTTs
Joined: 02 Apr 2008
Posts: 8581
Location: ANOTHER FUQQUIN MINCASH
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 Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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What is the purpose of mucking at showdown anyways? Just curious, I mean if I call someone down it's because I think I may have the best hand- I would have to see the winning hand before I mucked my cards. And then it is kind of looked at as rude to request to see a mucked hand?
On the flip side if someone calls me down light- I would want to see what they were holding. I think cards should be turned face up period regardless of preference--- I have even folded on ftp rivers because I didn't want to showdown my hole cards/ the fact that I chased when I was actually priced in to call.
I guess this is just one of the small facets of live play that I don't understand. |
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Big Slick x13x
Forum Icon
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 6813
Location: The U.S.A.
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:07 pm Post subject: |
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| just don't announce your hand if you called them. wait to see it. simple fix. If they look at you like they got caught and you don't care beyond that, then you announce your hand. |
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HuJwang
Forum Blight
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 9194
Location: Halifax, NS
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| Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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one thing i do is show the one card that gives me a top pair, let him muck, and then i can safely muck my other card, which allows me to give away less information.
on really wet boards i'm happy to let the other guy muck, especially if he is a fish, because those are the boards where it's really easy for him to have misread his hand and be mucking the winner (and also i don't need the info because i already know he's a fish).
against stronger players on dry boards, i prefer to see their hand if i can because it's pretty unlikely they've misread it, and the info will be a bit more useful. however i don't usually go out of my way to force him to show unless he has been doing it to other people. |
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axiomtek
High Card
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| All i'm talking about is when a player mucks AFTER seeing yours. Thats it. Not insta-mucking the bluff, but mucking AFTER he says yours. It's a showdown, show it |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8190
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| Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| If he's first to show, don't show your hand. Let the procedures/rules in place take effect. If you flip your hand before he shows, that's your fault for letting him off the hook when you want to see his cards. |
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NilesMonkey
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: Schenectady, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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I have an aside thought.
What if player A bets, player B calls and says "I have top two pair." Player A mucks, and player B shows air?
Player A voluntarily mucked, right? Player B gets the pot? |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8190
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Robert's Rules wrote: |
THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.
2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)
3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.
4. All losing hands will be killed by the dealer before a pot is awarded.
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that was eligible to participate in the showdown, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player's hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
6. Show one, show all. Players are entitled to receive equal access to information about the contents of another player's hand. After a deal, if cards are shown to another player, every player at the table has a right to see those cards. During a deal, cards that were shown to an active player who might have a further wagering decision on that betting round must immediately be shown to all the other players. If the player who saw the cards is not involved in the deal, or cannot use the information in wagering, the information should be withheld until the betting is over, so it does not affect the normal outcome of the deal. Cards shown to a person who has no more wagering decisions on that betting round, but might use the information on a later betting round, should be shown to the other players at the conclusion of that betting round. If only a portion of the hand has been shown, there is no requirement to show any of the unseen cards. The shown cards are treated as given in the preceding part of this rule.
7. If there is a side pot, the winner of that pot should be decided before the main pot is awarded. If there are multiple side pots, they are decided and awarded by having the pot with the players starting the deal with the greatest number of chips settled first, and so forth.
8. If everyone checks (or is all-in) on the final betting round, the player who acted first is the first to show the hand. If there is wagering on the final betting round, the last player to take aggressive action by a bet or raise is the first to show the hand. In order to speed up the game, a player holding a probable winner is encouraged to show the hand without delay. If there are one or more side pots (because someone is all-in), players are asked to aid in determining the pot winner by not showing their cards until a pot they are in is being settled. |
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OrieJr
Full House
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 186
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:54 pm Post subject: |
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The person making the last bet shows first.
The person calling then shows or mucks.
If the better wants to see the mucked cards, he has the right.
If the caller announces or shows first, they still have paid for the knowledge of what the bettor was betting with by calling. (this is a confusing sentence huh) |
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NilesMonkey
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1529
Location: Schenectady, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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That rule says "deliberately" and "may result in forfiture." Sounds like a lot of leeway.
"Oh, man, I really thought I had two pair, I'm serious..." |
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Big Slick x13x
Forum Icon
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 6813
Location: The U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| yeah that's when it becomes dealer or the floor's(supervisor) discretion on what to do with the player. They can have anything happen from forfeiture of the pot, various length of time break or just be plain kicked out. |
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cubbies760
Drawing Dead
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 12155
Location: Running From the Law
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| Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 12:07 am Post subject: |
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| axiomtek wrote: |
| All i'm talking about is when a player mucks AFTER seeing yours. Thats it. Not insta-mucking the bluff, but mucking AFTER he says yours. It's a showdown, show it |
If he called your bet, you're required to show your hand first. He can then muck his losing hand.
If you called his bet, he's required to show his hand first. You'd have no business showing yours first, and if you do, then too bad. You just gave up the opportunity to see his cards by showing yours out of turn.
Yes, it's a showdown. The hands should be revealed in proper order, starting with the hand that made the last bet. If you jump the gun by showing yours beforehand, you afford him the opportunity to not release any further information to you about his (losing) hand. |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1244
Location: on the verge of figuring out my "best game to 100% focus on" finallyforrealthistimeImeanit
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Flying_Kiwi wrote: |
Just don't turn your hand over until they do. If they were last to bet, they should be tabling their hand first anyway. I encounter this in home games all the time, where someone bets, I call, then they say "What have you got?" I just say "I called you." and wait for them to turn their hand over. It's kinda douchey, but it avoids the bet/muck situation.
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Yeah, if they say "what do you got?" you can say "it depends on what you have, you're the last aggressor" or similar. Or better yet, say nothing, don't let the table pressure you with their whines like "c'mon, somebody show a hand" or more likely "he said `I missed`, come on, show your pair, we don't have all day" etc. If he mucks, fine, don't make a big deal about it, but sometimes YOU *also* missed your draw, so be happy the last aggressor sometimes mucks instead of showing -- his air might be better than your air. 
| IABoomer wrote: |
| If you ask to see the hand, it's live. If he backed into a better hand than yours, he wins the pot. Let him muck, drag your pot, move on to the next hand. What information do you need to know? He had something worse than top pair. If you want him to show his hand first, don't announce your hand. |
| IABoomer wrote: |
| OP is bringing this behavior on himself. If you're calling a bet, don't then announce your hand. His acting out of turn at showdown by saying "I've got top pair" opens the door to this kind of behavior. |
^ there's reason Boomer is a highly-respected mod  |
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DannehBoi
Royal Flush
Joined: 26 Jan 2009
Posts: 578
Location: Min-cash city
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| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| axiomtek wrote: |
Acting out of turn? I thought a showdown was after the hand, like there is not "acting" after the river. Also, I'm not talking about him mucking a loser, but if a person was caught bluffing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRwvkdqJHvQ - Her'es a relevant video that kind touches on this subject |
Phil Hellmuth talking about poker etiquette is like a fat guy making an exercise video. |
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