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NilesMonkey
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1531
Location: Schenectady, NY
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:30 am Post subject: Early in a $2: Rivered Trip Aces |
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3rd hand in. I've already raised PF and shown down AK.
Once I hit the ace and he bets out, my plan is to call down and let him keep betting it, but he checks the turn.
Besides betting the turn bigger (FTP screwed up my settings, and I wasn't sure of the pot size), what else do I do here? And what's the river play?
Full Tilt Poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t15/t30 Blinds - 9 players
The Official Hand Converter
CO: t1370 M = 30.44
BTN: t1440 M = 32
SB: t1620 M = 36
BB: t1470 M = 32.67
UTG: t1500 M = 33.33
UTG+1: t1500 M = 33.33
UTG+2: t1370 M = 30.44
Hero (MP1): t1730 M = 38.44
MP2: t1500 M = 33.33
Pre Flop: (t45) Hero is MP1 with T A
3 folds, Hero raises to t90, 3 folds, SB calls t75, 1 fold
Flop: (t210) 9 6 A (2 players)
SB bets t180, Hero calls t180
Turn: (t570) 7 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t325, SB calls t325
River: (t1220) A (2 players)
SB bets t1025 all in, Hero ??? |
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bleffo19
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 1517
Location: SYD, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:30 am Post subject: |
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uggghhhh - don't like this decision here. he *mostly* has a flush here, but could have boated up as well. i don't think this is worse than you too often.
i muck pre. marginal hand in EP=insta-muck. will save you alot of problems later on
flop is a bit marginal too. i don't mind the call, but we have to be ready to fold unimproved - we're not getting donked into with air. fwiw i think calling>raising, coz if he flats then we are essentially pot-committing ourselves often with the worst hand
i'm checking back that turn all day. why are we betting here? do we really think that our hand is good (ie - value), or are we ever folding out better? i would say no to both. i would check back the turn with the intention of calling most resonable river bets (unless it gets spazz-potted or something)
OTR i sigh and fold. coz of the way he played it im guessing his FD got there. even though you hit your ace, i think calling here would be a massive leak in the long term. |
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anfieldassassin
Pair
Joined: 03 Sep 2009
Posts: 29
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:08 am Post subject: |
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I concur with Bleffo and put him on a flush big time. Hands that spring to mind pre-flop for the call, taking into account the bet on the flop, are 7s 8s which are playable from SB early on when few players in a pot and not overly raised (3x BB here). Could be a spazzy 8s 10s call too, but go with the former certainly.
Dont like the turn bet as begs for a river shove. Go for pot control and check back the SB's check to you. If he shoves on the river I would fold as you will find better spots and would have only lost 270 chips thus far, leaving you with 1460 left.
Depending on bet size at the river, you can consider calling. |
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NilesMonkey
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1531
Location: Schenectady, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| bleffo19 wrote: |
| i'm checking back that turn all day. why are we betting here? do we really think that our hand is good (ie - value), or are we ever folding out better? |
Not folding better, but I doubt he's ahead here. I don't see him betting near pot on the flop with a gutshot. So you'd rather me check and give a free card to flush draws? That doesn't make much sense to me. |
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marsupial311
Royal Flush
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:36 am Post subject: |
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| I probably fold that pre but as played, fold river. We're only ahead of really weak Aces and random bluffs and it's so early that it doesn't seem worth it. |
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bleffo19
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 1517
Location: SYD, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| NilesMonkey wrote: |
| Not folding better, but I doubt he's ahead here. I don't see him betting near pot on the flop with a gutshot. |
i don't think he's on a gutshot btw. you've kinda contradicted yourself here tho. if you DON'T think he's betting pot with a gutshot, then he has to have better, right? so therefore, why would you say you doubt he's ahead? it's highly likely he could have have Ax and paired his kicker.
fwiw i hate giving villains the odds to chase as much as the next person. the reason i say check back the turn is for a couple of reason -
1. pre and flop seem so marginal, that i'm fairly unwilling to put more money in the pot without improving. if the villain doesn't have a FD here, then he has us crushed with a bigger A or a paired kicker.
2. we are playing $2. nearly every villain whos bad (and he is coz of flop bet) will chase flush draws no matter what the price. thus, if he is on a FD, we don't want bet more knowing he's going to call ANYWAY and then be forced to fold when he hits, right?
pretty much, we need to get to a showdown cheaply. we're not going to get there cheaply by betting that turn. |
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NilesMonkey
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1531
Location: Schenectady, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| bleffo19 wrote: |
| you've kinda contradicted yourself here tho. if you DON'T think he's betting pot with a gutshot, then he has to have better, right? |
Not necessarily. He's could be betting a weaker ace on the flop, or semi-bluffing with a flush draw. I think a bigger ace re-raises me PF, or at least bets the turn again.
| bleffo19 wrote: |
| 2. we are playing $2. nearly every villain whos bad (and he is coz of flop bet) will chase flush draws no matter what the price. thus, if he is on a FD, we don't want bet more knowing he's going to call ANYWAY and then be forced to fold when he hits, right? |
This is terrible advice. You don't want to bet more because you know he will call any bet with a flush draw? That's insane. Checking allows him to see the river card cheaply. If he misses (which he will do over 3/4 of the time) he will fold to any river bet. I need to charge him for value now. Betting the turn is the only way to get more value from this hand. Otherwise, I'm basically allowing him to freeroll the river. |
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bleffo19
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 1517
Location: SYD, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| NilesMonkey wrote: |
| bleffo19 wrote: |
| you've kinda contradicted yourself here tho. if you DON'T think he's betting pot with a gutshot, then he has to have better, right? |
Not necessarily. He's could be betting a weaker ace on the flop, or semi-bluffing with a flush draw. I think a bigger ace re-raises me PF, or at least bets the turn again.
| bleffo19 wrote: |
| 2. we are playing $2. nearly every villain whos bad (and he is coz of flop bet) will chase flush draws no matter what the price. thus, if he is on a FD, we don't want bet more knowing he's going to call ANYWAY and then be forced to fold when he hits, right? |
This is terrible advice. You don't want to bet more because you know he will call any bet with a flush draw? That's insane. Checking allows him to see the river card cheaply. If he misses (which he will do over 3/4 of the time) he will fold to any river bet. I need to charge him for value now. Betting the turn is the only way to get more value from this hand. Otherwise, I'm basically allowing him to freeroll the river. |
OK i agree my advice there is pretty shonky. i didn't really express myself correctly i think. but thats alright - i learn as much from posting bad advice and being corrected than i do from from posting my own hands.
i guess i'm not a huge fan of building a pot with marginal holdings - that's all. in this instance it's OK i guess because we can pretty much nail his hand down to a FD OTT after he donks then checks. so yer, it's probably best to squeeze value from him while he's a ~20% dog. he hits, you fold; ce'st la vie.
idk - i guess i was kinda throw a bit by this hand. i think pre is a fold still. re-looking at some of the things i said i can see they are pretty stupid and plain-out wrong - but hey, i've learned from it.
so to cut my ramblings - fold pre. as played fold river. |
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NilesMonkey
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 13 Dec 2007
Posts: 1531
Location: Schenectady, NY
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bleffo19 wrote: |
| fold pre. as played fold river. |
+1  |
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Danduy
Four of a Kind
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Tessenderlo (Belgium)
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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I also would call this a marginal situation here and the best option is to fold on the river.
The out of turn bet into the raiser doesn't mean strenght most off the time. I do mean most off the time. A preflop fold was the best option. But that didn't happen.
A raise against his flop bet would be the aggressive approch wich i prefer when i get bet into.
What he could have:
1: A set off 66 - 99:
If i would hit a set in this situation, i would check, let the raiser bet and reraise big or slowplay on a less coordinated board. Making a bigger pot.
Also his check-call on the turn doesn't fit here. Same for A6 - A9.
2: Gutshot straightdraw:
No way i'm even drawing to this, stand alone bet into a preflop raiser with an ace showing. At bigger blinds i would consider it in rare situations with optimal conditions.
3: flush draw:
Works out fine here:
Betting to take the pot right now with nothing yet. Check-call the turn. 3rd spade hits and it's an ace. If you're holding AK - AQ, what your raise indicated, you might pay him off. If i hit a K high flush here i would do the same. If you indeed raised with A6 - A7 - A9 and makes aces full, would be fishy play and you will take all my chips.
4: Bluff:
If it is, then it's a very well played one. He puts you on an ace and still he's willing go for it.
I would say that he has his flush made. |
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Pokergal812
Full House
Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 153
Location: Jersey
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| NilesMonkey wrote: |
| bleffo19 wrote: |
| fold pre. as played fold river. |
+1 |
me too  This early, with all 9 people still in - I do not want to get myself into guessing games when my Ace hits.
Though, if I did play this hand and thought my hand was best on the flop I might try a re-raise rather than the smooth call on the flop, I think it gives you more information & possibly can buy you a cheaper ride to turn and river if your hand isn't best here. I like to maybe advertise I have a decent ACE -- if he has a better one or a set, you should find out here... I think if he just calls your bet - it would tell me flush draw... possibly 7-8 straight draw, which I've seen people play in this spot.
If flush card or really scary straight card doesn't hit turn, for better or worse, the way played - I might put out a C-bet to try to pick up the pot here.
I think I grumpily fold the river at this stage if the guy shoves with enough of my chips still in-tact.[/i] |
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