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JJsell
Flush
Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 145
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| billymetsfan00 wrote: |
| I just dont agree. If you are playing a 9man SNG and play too tight when you are 4-5 handed you are gonna have way to many 3-5th place finishes. You need to abuse the bubble at this point. You dont have to play crazy, but should def play to get a big chip lead headed into 3 handed |
you dont have to play too tight, but you cant win it when there are 4/5 people left, so when it is 4/5 handed you need to be lookin for good chances to steal the blinds because by this point a blind steal can sometimes be a healthy addition to your chip stack. you dont want to be committing your chip stack in marginal positions when 4/5 handed though as this is unlikely to +EV in the long run. |
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straight4life
Two Pair
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 68
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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These are my stats for 3 months
Actually it's 12% ROI (heads up turbo only) if I hadn't tilted away $300
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uconnrounder
Two Pair
Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:41 am Post subject: |
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I'm kindof surprised at the number of people who have a flawed mentality in their approach to sngs in this thread. When there are 4-5 people left, that is the EASIEST point to get yourself in position to take 1st places. With 4-5 players left, your goal should not necessarily be "what is the best way for me to min cash so I can then try to take 1st place afterwards."
People's calling ranges are tighest when there are 4-5 players remaining. As a result, their chips are up for grabs. I'd gladly decrease my ITM % a small amount in order to increase my 1st place frequency. For those telling you that your goal is to make it ITM and then focus on 1st place, that is quite often not the case, and you will never reach your true earnings potential by applying that logic in all situations (or even most situations). |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1224
Location: on the verge of figuring out my "best game to 100% focus on" finallyforrealthistimeImeanit
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Who can tell me the facts and numbers i need!! |
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grunch warning*
| Danduy wrote: |
To become a good Sit & Go player... What are the numbers i need to work to like ROI and stuff.
Is there a solid number you need to gain at winning s&g's? like i've played 10 s&g's. How many times do i need to finish first, second and third at minimum to be one off the better players?
Sure, i know that i need to finish 1st as many as possible. But you get the picture!!! |
Have 20-40 buyins to handle the occasionally not-cashing-in-4-in-a-row bad runs, and be happy with overall 10% ROI give or take a bit. You might occasionally be hitting much higher than that, especially at first when other players haven't had enough matches to "figure you out", but don't get used to 25%+ ROI cuz that's just not sustainable (unless you play a single match at a time, pay attention to every single player's every single move, watch how they play even after you bustout for future info, etc.)
| Danduy wrote: |
Now that's my problem. I don't try to cash as many as possible. I try to win as many as possible. That's a reason why i bubble a lot.
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Bubbling a "lot" is fine IF most of the time when you make it ITM you get to headsup... Most players with >10% roi seem to cash about 40% of the time, but a very small minority of those cashes are 3rd place. If you stay tight-cautious (and are able to maintain or slightly increase your starting stack) until 6handed or 5handed, and are decent at the shove/re-shove/fold stage that means you've essentially got a 1-in-2 chance of cashing, but you're likely to need good luck to make it to headsup. But if you play a bit looser early on, seeing more flops and making more plays, sure sometimes you're gonna bust out way before the bubble, but usually your stack will be 2x or 3x the starting stack by the time you are on the bubble so you can exploit those smaller stacks and almost ensure you are getting to HU. 2 schools of thought.
If you are bubbling tons, ask yourself if it's because your stack is usually the lowest at the table, since often the guy with 3x the starting stack will risk doubling you up on the bubble, which of course is likely to happen 30%-40% of the time depending on your shoving range and his calling range. And that's why the other school of thought has some merit (i.e. building an above-average stack well before the bubble).
Have you checked Sharkscope for your SnG finishing positions? Is it a rare time you bust out in 8th or 7th, but also rarely 1st or 2nd? You might need to open up your early game, then (based on how the rest of the table is playing, of course).
* and of course, now I see decent advice summed up here:
| marsupial311 wrote: |
| tjb111 wrote: |
u got for ITM first, then try to win it
your goal should be lots of 3rds and 1sts, not lots of 2nds |
^ This. Playing to win at the bubble either gets you 4th/5th or gets you into the money with a big stack. If you open up once you get ITM and try to build a big lead going into HU, those 3rd places will add up your profit just as fast as those 4th/5th place finishes will kill it. |
| tjb111 wrote: |
big slick is completely right
the goal is to MIN CASH FIRST
then once thats out of the way your goal is to WIN THE TOURNAMENT
your goal is never for 2nd, or never for 1st when ur not ITM |
summary, the long and the short of it is:
at first, play "opposite" to the way the table is playing until 6handed (you might luck out and have a super-tight table that you can rob blind, or you might luck out and have a maniac table and can fold like 8 hands and suddenly there are 3 bustouts) ... then at that point, or maybe 5handed, you all will be playing the push-or-fold game (which you MUST play, in order to get to the bubble with a decent stack). Once at the bubble, if you are way over-stacked compared to the rest, you can "abuse the bubble" and build your stack even more (I like to keep the smallest stack "alive" so the middle stacks will keep folding to my shove-steals, that's the sweetest scenario, so when it's finally 3handed I have like 70%+ of the chips in play) ... but if on the bubble you are one of the middle stacks, and you see the other 3 guys are gambling it up, survive to ITM, it's okay to play chicken now cuz once the bubble pops you go from 0% of the pool to 20% of the pool. Then the 3 of you are playing for the remaining 80% (50% 1st, 30% 2nd) and it's play-like-a-maniac time, "play for 1st" is finally true at this point.
How's that for a summary?
Last edited by DforDissent on Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Big Slick x13x
Forum Icon
Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 6807
Location: The U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| billymetsfan00 wrote: |
| I just dont agree. If you are playing a 9man SNG and play too tight when you are 4-5 handed you are gonna have way to many 3-5th place finishes. You need to abuse the bubble at this point. You dont have to play crazy, but should def play to get a big chip lead headed into 3 handed |
You're not playing "too tight" on the bubble to make the cash. You're exploiting the bubble. Learn ICM and pushing ranges so that you can exploit the smaller stacks that are trying to get in to the money. If you're chip leader on the bubble you should have at least a 3:1 chip lead going into 3 handed unless the bubble ended incredibly fast. Which is basically what you said, but I don't see where I ever said that you have to play too tight. I just said play for the cash first. Don't take some random coin flip early, you can fold the smaller +ev edges early on and be good enough to outplay the opponents later.
I'd also like to add that 11% over that sample size at turbo heads up is very good. I think I remember seeing the best hu players at higher stakes sustaining 8% or so and that being considered excellent. |
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Danduy
Four of a Kind
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 284
Location: Tessenderlo (Belgium)
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 5:28 am Post subject: |
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@DforDissent - there some answers there that i like.
I recently also noticed that keeping the smallest stack 'alive' will desencourage others to risk their money finish.
Recently i turned into a tight player until the game gets to 5-6 handed. I'll open up more and play more aggressive.
But opening up early... I have my questions about that. I see a lot of players bust out early in the stages with some AQ and stuff. I will see a flop with the right price with suited connectors or AXs.
And if i open early: TT+ - AK - AQs
My calling range depends on how many players there are in the current hand, aggresiveness and implied odds. But most off all position. I will muck a 9Ts connector if i'm to act right after a UTG raise for example but call on the button in the right cocumstances.
I've also seen on sharkscope that the tight players have the best ROI overall. So this can't be bad.
When the bubble bursts i'll go on a rampage with my small stack, wich i usually have when the bubble is past. |
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