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TinkyTyler
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:14 am Post subject: Weird spot in the SB, 10.5k rebuy, line check |
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I wasn't running a HUD (software problems for some reason), but the BB is tight agressive and definitely a solid player. Is there a good argument for check/shoving the turn? I didn't see much that I could beat other than straight draws after he called and the turn came.. (I figured he calls with better 9s, flush/straight draws, and SOMETIMES 8s or smaller PPs)
Any advice on the line? Should I check/shove the turn?
Full Tilt Poker $10,500 Guarantee (Rebuy) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1200/t2400 Blinds + t300 - 9 players -
The Official Hand History
UTG+1: t35410 M = 5.62
UTG+2: t43413 M = 6.89
MP1: t51813 M = 8.22
MP2: t91592 M = 14.54
CO: t57734 M = 9.16
BTN: t61866 M = 9.82
Hero (SB): t76266 M = 12.11
BB: t70726 M = 11.23
UTG: t20778 M = 3.30
Pre Flop: (t6300) Hero is SB with 9  3
UTG calls t2400, 2 folds, MP1 calls t2400, 3 folds, Hero calls t1200, BB checks
Flop: (t12300) 8  9 9  (4 players)
Hero bets t8888, BB calls t8888, UTG folds, MP1 folds
Turn: (t30076) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t12000, Hero?? |
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TinkyTyler
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Bump for help cause hand is driving me insane. |
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goomlah
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1298
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| You're right about the weird spot. Goom would throw up first, then flat, but not sure it's best. |
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adam27x
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Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Posts: 4992
Location: New York/New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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I generally fold pre because it's hard to extract value OOP and our hand is crap (yes I know we're getting good odds but we're only really continuing when we hit 2pair+ and that isn't very often and even when we do hit 2pair+ we aren't always good)
We have 30bbs and trip 9s so I can't really see folding as being a great option. I'm definitely betting the turn and just going with it, there's a decent amount of draws and definitely some worse hands and it is pretty tough for us to have a strong made hand on this board, and there is a good chance that the villain knows that. I think you got scared because the FD hit but that's a smallish portion of his range and we still have equity. I think check/shoving is kind of overrepping our hand and getting a bit too fancy.
So as played I flat and c/c non club rivers |
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francois8
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Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3940
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Weird spot in the SB, 10.5k rebuy, line check |
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Hero (SB): t76266 M = 12.11
BB: t70726 M = 11.23
UTG: t20778 M = 3.30
Pre Flop: (t6300) Hero is SB with 9 3
UTG calls t2400, 2 folds, MP1 calls t2400, 3 folds, Hero calls t1200, BB checks
Flop: (t12300) 8 9 9 (4 players)
Hero bets t8888, BB calls t8888, UTG folds, MP1 folds
Turn: (t30076) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t12000, Hero??
Wow. OK. I'm not folding here, so check that off the list. Without reads, I don't see how he can fold very often to a shove. By default, I think I flat and chug the rest of my beer waiting for river card to hit... at which point, I really don't know what to do unless the board pairs (or my 3).
FWIW, I think I check that flop like literally 100% of the time. UTG should shove with whatever the hell he limped with, given his stack and the amount in the pot, and you would have good chance to get it in on flop with an isolation re-shove over him. Once you lead out and BB called, he's gotta know that his hand is chit and he has no fold equity so he wiggles off the hook. |
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TinkyTyler
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| adam27x wrote: |
I generally fold pre because it's hard to extract value OOP and our hand is crap (yes I know we're getting good odds but we're only really continuing when we hit 2pair+ and that isn't very often and even when we do hit 2pair+ we aren't always good)
We have 30bbs and trip 9s so I can't really see folding as being a great option. I'm definitely betting the turn and just going with it, there's a decent amount of draws and definitely some worse hands and it is pretty tough for us to have a strong made hand on this board, and there is a good chance that the villain knows that. I think you got scared because the FD hit but that's a smallish portion of his range and we still have equity. I think check/shoving is kind of overrepping our hand and getting a bit too fancy.
So as played I flat and c/c non club rivers |
I generally agree with your first statement... but I had been at this table for a while, had a good feel for it, and felt I could outplay alot of them postflop. So given the massive odds I still decided to see the flop, even though Im going to have trouble getting value in spots like this OOP.
And yea, ure right I did get a little scared (again lol) when the club came... different reasons though than last time. When he called on the flop I specifically thought his range was mostly 9x, straight and flush draws, and sometimes 8x. When the turn came a club my first instinct was wanting to get a cheap showdown...
At the time I didn't like leading out, because of what I just said, and didn't think he would shove back with anything that I beat (I find it hard to believe he shoves straight draws or 8s after the club comes and I lead out again).
I think I like c/c though. |
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TinkyTyler
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Weird spot in the SB, 10.5k rebuy, line check |
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| francois8 wrote: |
Hero (SB): t76266 M = 12.11
BB: t70726 M = 11.23
UTG: t20778 M = 3.30
Pre Flop: (t6300) Hero is SB with 9 3
UTG calls t2400, 2 folds, MP1 calls t2400, 3 folds, Hero calls t1200, BB checks
Flop: (t12300) 8 9 9 (4 players)
Hero bets t8888, BB calls t8888, UTG folds, MP1 folds
Turn: (t30076) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t12000, Hero??
Wow. OK. I'm not folding here, so check that off the list. Without reads, I don't see how he can fold very often to a shove. By default, I think I flat and chug the rest of my beer waiting for river card to hit... at which point, I really don't know what to do unless the board pairs (or my 3).
FWIW, I think I check that flop like literally 100% of the time. UTG should shove with whatever the hell he limped with, given his stack and the amount in the pot, and you would have good chance to get it in on flop with an isolation re-shove over him. Once you lead out and BB called, he's gotta know that his hand is chit and he has no fold equity so he wiggles off the hook. |
If only the other players were as good as you....
UTG was the most loose* passive player at the table... limp folding PF, and limp folding on flops all day. There is no way he was sticking it in without something good.
Good point anyways though... do you think c/r on the flop might be OK? One of my buddies was thinking it might be better than leading out, but I was genuinely concerned about it getting checked around for one, and didn't think my hand was strong enough to c/r. Basically, if i c/r I think its pretty much as a bluff cause I don't get called by much worse. |
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francois8
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Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3940
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Weird spot in the SB, 10.5k rebuy, line check |
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| TinkyTyler wrote: |
If only the other players were as good as you....
UTG was the most loose* passive player at the table... limp folding PF, and limp folding on flops all day. There is no way he was sticking it in without something good.
Good point anyways though... do you think c/r on the flop might be OK? One of my buddies was thinking it might be better than leading out, but I was genuinely concerned about it getting checked around for one, and didn't think my hand was strong enough to c/r. Basically, if i c/r I think its pretty much as a bluff cause I don't get called by much worse. |
Harder if loose passive, for sure. I think that if checked to, a passive player may get it in or at least bet a pocket pair here. Also, the LP player may try to pick it up with 3 checks figuring blinds have nothing and passive guy will fold.
It would suck hard to have that checked around, but with 3 players in it, I'd have to give one of them a shot to bet at it. To me, that's the only reason really to play anything in the SB... if you flop hard you have the best possible chance to check raise as you have the maximum amount of players to act after you.
BTW, if it checks around and club hits turn, I would say a lot of bad words. |
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TinkyTyler
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Weird spot in the SB, 10.5k rebuy, line check |
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| francois8 wrote: |
| TinkyTyler wrote: |
If only the other players were as good as you....
UTG was the most loose* passive player at the table... limp folding PF, and limp folding on flops all day. There is no way he was sticking it in without something good.
Good point anyways though... do you think c/r on the flop might be OK? One of my buddies was thinking it might be better than leading out, but I was genuinely concerned about it getting checked around for one, and didn't think my hand was strong enough to c/r. Basically, if i c/r I think its pretty much as a bluff cause I don't get called by much worse. |
Harder if loose passive, for sure. I think that if checked to, a passive player may get it in or at least bet a pocket pair here. Also, the LP player may try to pick it up with 3 checks figuring blinds have nothing and passive guy will fold.
It would suck hard to have that checked around, but with 3 players in it, I'd have to give one of them a shot to bet at it. To me, that's the only reason really to play anything in the SB... if you flop hard you have the best possible chance to check raise as you have the maximum amount of players to act after you.
BTW, if it checks around and club hits turn, I would say a lot of bad words. |
I agree someone will likely bet if I check.. the problem is do I want to c/r here? Like i said above, Im pretty much turning my hand into a bluff if I do that. Like... maybe some draws come along for the ride, but Im pretty much saying "I have a 9" by doing that, and should only get called by better made hands. I don't think I hit this flop hard enough to make that kind of move. This is why I lead out at the time...
Is my thinking flawed here? (It probably is lol) |
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francois8
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Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3940
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:31 pm Post subject: |
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I mean there's only one 9 left in the deck. I think its unlikely that UTG or CO has it. If BB has the other 9, well that just really sucks. Checking gives pocket pairs, hands like A8, or big Ax hands a chance to lead out to take the pot. I wouldn't say that this turns your hand into a bluff, bluff-catcher perhaps.
Leading out here looks more like a bluff than a 9x hand. Since you bet out, most people will put you on the 8x than the 9x here... to me that's what makes folding the turn so hard- your hand is a lot stronger than they're likely giving you credit for. |
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TinkyTyler
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Ok... I think this is pretty trivial, but what now? c/f seems pretty obvious to me... but is there any value in trying a small 20k bluff(looks pretty strong cause I only have 53k behind, but it obviously gets smacked in the face by most clubs)... obviously if I plan to call a bet from him anyways leading out could be best, but thats definitely not the case here.
Full Tilt Poker $10,500 Guarantee (Rebuy) No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t1200/t2400 Blinds + t300 - 9 players -
The Official Hand History
UTG+1: t35410 M = 5.62
UTG+2: t43413 M = 6.89
MP1: t51813 M = 8.22
MP2: t91592 M = 14.54
CO: t57734 M = 9.16
BTN: t61866 M = 9.82
Hero (SB): t76266 M = 12.11
BB: t70726 M = 11.23
UTG: t20778 M = 3.30
Pre Flop: (t6300) Hero is SB with 9 3
UTG calls t2400, 2 folds, MP1 calls t2400, 3 folds, Hero calls t1200, BB checks
Flop: (t12300) 8 9 9 (4 players)
Hero bets t8888, BB calls t8888, UTG folds, MP1 folds
Turn: (t30076) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets t12000, Hero calls t12000
River: (t54076) J (2 players)
Hero??? |
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goomlah
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Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Posts: 1298
Location: Chicago
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| checks and throws up. |
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francois8
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Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3940
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| goomlah wrote: |
| checks and throws up. |
this. Then fold, go outside, find a stray cat, kick it, get another beer. |
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TinkyTyler
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Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 1982
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeh ok.. just wondering if there was a way to find a b/f line or not. Ill post results later tonight. |
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bleffo19
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Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Posts: 1524
Location: SYD, Australia
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:00 am Post subject: |
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fold pre. i'm not sure why you bothered here with this hand. you're just giving up chips when you're really only going to continue with a tiny percentage of possible flops. as well it's hard to extract value from our position.
lead both flop and turn. c/r overreps your hand and folding is bad as there is so much worse villains will put their money in with. on any non club river i prob slow down and c/c unless we boat up.
on that river i projective vomit, punch a baby, and sob deeply before c/f'ing. |
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