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Danduy
Four of a Kind
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Tessenderlo (Belgium)
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 Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:09 pm Post subject: Who can tell me the facts and numbers i need!! |
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To become a good Sit & Go player... What are the numbers i need to work to like ROI and stuff.
Is there a solid number you need to gain at winning s&g's? like i've played 10 s&g's. How many times do i need to finish first, second and third at minimum to be one off the better players?
Sure, i know that i need to finish 1st as many as possible. But you get the picture!!! |
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Flying_Kiwi
Bird of Mystery
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 8457
Location: Spewing bonus $
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| You could try thinking about it. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 6817
Location: The U.S.A.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| you need to cash as much as possible, not finish first as much as possible. Unless you're talking about multi table sngs then it depends on the number of entries / payout structure. |
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Danduy
Four of a Kind
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Tessenderlo (Belgium)
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:40 am Post subject: |
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Now that's my problem. I don't try to cash as many as possible. I try to win as many as possible. That's a reason why i bubble a lot.
10$ STT:
3 rd place pays 18$ (net profit 7$)
1 st place pays 45$ (net profit 34$)
I don't play Multi table s&g's. Sometimes to get a practice for a tournament or so or for fun. But the STT should become my main game whit in a period of time.
So for this i need a goal to work to and i need to keep an eye out for what i should achieve. I'm not running bad lately. Hell, for the first time in 1.5 years i'm making a little profit with the STT (i tried cash games, MTT, PLO,...) and i like to play them to.
My sharkscope:
Games played: 470
Av. profit: 1,6$
av. stake: 8$
av. ROI: 11%
I'm not very familiar with these numbers. So a good goal would do just fine. |
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uconnrounder
Two Pair
Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 72
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Big Slick x13x wrote: |
| you need to cash as much as possible, not finish first as much as possible. Unless you're talking about multi table sngs then it depends on the number of entries / payout structure. |
This is actually terrible terrible advice. You need to be focused on taking 1st place, not just making the money. There are certain situations where you need to curtail your goal of 1st in order to avoid missing out on any money at all, but focusing on merely making the money is not the mindset of a good sng player. The biggest winners are not the ones with the highest ITM %; they're the people who frequently make it to the money, but the main reason for their success is the fact that they take a lot of 1st places.
To be a good sng player:
You need to study and work on your game. Figure out the best ways to accumulate chips, get your push/fold game as close to perfect as possible, etc.
Over a large sample size, ROI can tell you things, as can ITM %. However, using them together will tell a better picture. Depending on the structure of the sng, you will need different sample sizes to give you some idea of your overall skill.
Regular speed: 1,000 - 1,500 games
Turbo: 2,000 - 3,000 games
Super Turbo: 5,000 - 6,000 games
Once you have the required sample, you can look at your ITM % and your first place %. If you are finishing ITM a lot but not taking a lot of firsts, it is likely that your ROI isn't as high as it could be, and you should be sacrificing a few min cashes to put yourself in position to take more 1st place finishes. If you have a low ITM % and a high 1st place %, perhaps you can be less aggressive. It's about finding a healthy balance, but coming in 1st more than any other position is usually closer to optimal than a high ITM % heavily weighted towards 3rd place. |
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tjb111
forum BAP bumper
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 3783
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:50 am Post subject: |
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u got for ITM first, then try to win it
your goal should be lots of 3rds and 1sts, not lots of 2nds |
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marsupial311
Royal Flush
Joined: 14 Oct 2008
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| tjb111 wrote: |
u got for ITM first, then try to win it
your goal should be lots of 3rds and 1sts, not lots of 2nds |
^ This. Playing to win at the bubble either gets you 4th/5th or gets you into the money with a big stack. If you open up once you get ITM and try to build a big lead going into HU, those 3rd places will add up your profit just as fast as those 4th/5th place finishes will kill it. |
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Danduy
Four of a Kind
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Tessenderlo (Belgium)
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:01 am Post subject: |
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I don't like to sit around at the bubble with a short stack. I need some leverage on this point.
At this point i will open up and go for the kill. A double up or stealing a lot. Sometimes it goes bad, but it often works. Because once the bubble has past, the players who are in the money often don't care anymore and start playing more hands then usual because they already cashed anyway.
The ITM ratio for me is not that high, but when i do. It's 1st place most often.
Still working on my game and i don't stop with study or trying to improve my game here. It's quite hard work, but i think i have shot here to become a good s&g player. Well, i hope so after my run from the last two days. But that's another post. |
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tjb111
forum BAP bumper
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 3783
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| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:09 am Post subject: |
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| u wanna be ITM 35-40% of the time, and winning it i think %15-20 |
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JJsell
Full House
Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 153
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| tjb111 wrote: |
u got for ITM first, then try to win it
your goal should be lots of 3rds and 1sts, not lots of 2nds |
+1 to this. As soon as you break the bubble and are itm you want to be going for first. So first aim is to cash and then first. |
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deadmeat82
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 04 Mar 2008
Posts: 1215
Location: rakeback 4 all
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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| JJsell wrote: |
| tjb111 wrote: |
u got for ITM first, then try to win it
your goal should be lots of 3rds and 1sts, not lots of 2nds |
+1 to this. As soon as you break the bubble and are itm you want to be going for first. So first aim is to cash and then first. |
Absolutely, save the "bubble is better than mincash" mentality for the big mtts, in those you need to run very deep to overcome variance. In sngs just make getting paid your first priority.
I was talking this over with another forumer some time back and we decided that going up one buy in per 10 played was a reasonable and acheivable goal. So imo any roi of >10% is what you are looking for. |
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Danduy
Four of a Kind
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
Posts: 286
Location: Tessenderlo (Belgium)
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 5:04 pm Post subject: |
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Just found a post where a discussion was running about ROI:
IABoomer found it somewhere on 2+2:
Buyin ITM% ROI%
$3.40 40-50% 25%+
$5.50 40-50% 25%+
$6.50 38-45% 20-25%
$11 40-45% 20-25%
$16 38-44% 12-20%
$20 38-45% 12-20%
$27 38-43% 10-15%
$33 37-42% 10-15%
$50 36-42% 8-13%
$60 36-42% 8-13%
$100+ 36-42% 5-10%
So TJB111, you answered the question well here. Seems i still have a lot of work to do. I've red the Collin Moshman s&g strategy guide.
He mentioned that it's better to go for first then to try and get 1st place then folding into the money. Because you need a lot of 3rd places to become the same profit as a 1st place. And he is right on that one. so i'm gonna stick around at the bubble and go for it. |
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Big Slick x13x
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Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 6817
Location: The U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| uconnrounder wrote: |
| Big Slick x13x wrote: |
| you need to cash as much as possible, not finish first as much as possible. Unless you're talking about multi table sngs then it depends on the number of entries / payout structure. |
This is actually terrible terrible advice....(I quit reading after this)
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You shouldn't quote good advice then start your reply with that sentence. It makes it look like you're trying to discredit me. Please see the posts following yours for the reasons. I'll give you a starting concept: basically the payout structure isn't weighted heavily enough for a first place finish to maximize your profits always playing for first. Also you could search the full tilt tips from the pros and look at one of the first ones from Howard Lederer, where he basically says the same thing, but maybe he's giving bad advice also  |
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tjb111
forum BAP bumper
Joined: 26 Jun 2008
Posts: 3783
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| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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big slick is completely right
the goal is to MIN CASH FIRST
then once thats out of the way your goal is to WIN THE TOURNAMENT
your goal is never for 2nd, or never for 1st when ur not ITM |
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billymetsfan00
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Joined: 01 Nov 2007
Posts: 2063
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| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I just dont agree. If you are playing a 9man SNG and play too tight when you are 4-5 handed you are gonna have way to many 3-5th place finishes. You need to abuse the bubble at this point. You dont have to play crazy, but should def play to get a big chip lead headed into 3 handed |
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