Online Poker Forum - Standard or find a fold

nolan6 · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:15 am Post subject: Standard or find a fold

Full Tilt Poker, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
-

CO: $11.46
Hero (BTN): $11
SB: $13.60
BB: $16.70
UTG: $10.55

Pre-Flop: J Diamond

J

dealt to Hero (BTN)
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, SB raises to $1, BB folds, Hero raises to $3.30, SB raises to $13.60 and is All-In, Hero calls $7.70 and is All-In

Villain has been tight so far but im sure he'll have noticed me stealing alot.
If i hadnt been stealing so much in the last few orbits i'd likely flat here.
When shoved on im probably slightly behind his range TT-AA, AQ/AK, but im too commited to fold right? 3bet fold is weak tight, yes/no?

adam27x · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:49 pm Post subject:

in my experience, even tight players won't 3bet light at 10nl, so I like flatting the 3bet and taking it from there. You wouldn't be 3bet/folding here, you'd be 4bet/folding, which I'd much rather do than A5o than JJ for sure. So once you 4bet I do feel as though you have to get it in but I don't think you're ever good here.

nolan6 · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject:

Your right i wasnt good. But, i dont think you played much 6max and i think 3 betting from the blinds to a button raise does happen quite often and depending on how often button opens will effect how often the blinds re-steal. In this case i thought that my range was wide,so he's 3 bet range was wide also. I gathered i was likely beat when he shoved but by then its too late to fold. Flatting is probably what i'd do most often, as i kinda turned my hand into a bluff looking back.

Against a LAG player then my plays ok but against a tag i shoulda flatted. I didnt really have any stats at the time though.

templar rage · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:31 pm Post subject:

In this spot, 4bet/folding is pretty bad. If you were deeper, it could be an option, but you would need superb reads that this guy will 3bet light out of the blinds a lot. I agree that there is more re-stealing going on at 6max, but a TAG is still waiting for something they feel comfortable going with, so you have very little, if any, fold equity here with a 4bet.

Your post-adam analysis is good IMO, but of course hindsight is 20/20 Smile

.

adam27x · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:44 pm Post subject:

are you seeing people show down worse than QQ+/AK when 3betting in these spots or are you just being results oriented because you're frustrated when you get 3bet in these spots? People certainly 3bet more at 6m than FR, especially in a hand like this one, but IME at 10nl 3betting was ridiculously rare.

nolan6 · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:21 pm Post subject:

Maybe im being results orientated im not sure as not many 3bet pots get to showdown, but 3 betting isn't that rare at all at 10nl 6max from my experience. Is there flaws in the logic... If im raising the button as wide as J6suited, i cant fold to a 3 bet with JJ because if im folding JJ im more or less letting him bet me off my whole range?

I guess untill im sure the villain has latched on to me stealing so often i should air on the side of respecting his 3bets though.

adam27x · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:52 pm Post subject:

fletch_smf · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:59 pm Post subject:

Thing is, if he's tight, then his 3 Bet either has you dominated or is a bluff. When you 4 Bet he's folding the hands you beat, and getting it in with the hands that have you. Call and take it from there.

Riddim · Moderator Joined: 04 Dec 2005 Posts: 9913 Location: Sweden

Folding to the 3-bet would probably pretty bad, but I'm pretty sure 4-bet calling is as well. Villain 3-betting wide is only half a reason for 4-betting here, you also need him to continue with enough of those hands once you do 3-bet. Do you really think he's going to jam with his random 3-bet bluffs or AQ/TT type hands here?

Also, yes, there are flaws in your logic regarding the "I can't fold something so close to the top of my range". While a fold here probably wouldn't be good, it's not because you're so close to the top of your range but rather because you do well enough against his 3-betting range to continue. The type of logic you're using works well when someone's either good and/or balanced enough or when you're just really unsure of what villain's range is. Most of the time though, you're better off focusing on what is most profitable with your specific hand vs. whatever range you think you're up against.

nolan6 · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:52 pm Post subject:

I've realized why i 4 bet now, and its because of a hand i played at another table were i was against a thinking Reg who wasn't massively loose, but was very AGG..

I had 99 in SB
villain was BB
I 3x it...He 3x it... I 3.5x it...he flats.
Flop J 8 2
I bet about half pot, he shoves, i call.

But for this hand there was alot of history between us, i mean i actually was really prepared to stack off pre and against one overcard on the flop. Because, basically he knows im aggressive regarding stealing, and he also knows that i might think he's playing back light. So we both have wide ranges. I wanted and thought he'd shove over my bet because he knows its almost inevitable im going to bet AQ,AK here, and probably thinks i'd check AA/KK to trap as he knows i expect him to bet when checked to, and board is dry. I also bet really because i thought i was still ahead of his range and didnt want to let him hit an over, or scare card- if he was to check it back. He shoved with 33 but the whole hand was a bit like we were both trying to out muscle the other.
Im not really sure what he was doing in the pot with 33, he musta planned to make a move.

Thats all a bit irrelevant(i dont mind reviewing hands though so i mayswell type it on here) but i definitely think the way i play one had effects how i play another. If you look at the two hands i posted were i had flush draws today, you can see im reluctant to shove the second one, i think this might be because i bricked my draws in the first, i dont mean to do this but its the only explanation of why i did 4 bet JJ and why i didnt jam the second draw. Something to work on for sure. thnaks all.

Oh and what about if i have QQ instead of JJ here, get it in on the bases he doesnt crush me with QQ, or is his range very much weighted towards KK/AA?

adam27x · Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:38 pm Post subject:

will he continue with enough worse hands to a 4bet? I probably still flat the 3bet pretty often.

HuJwang · Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:25 am Post subject:

if you're gonna 4bet... why so big?

nolan6 · Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:50 am Post subject:

Because i wasnt 4bet folding so i didnt see much difference between making it 2.70 or 350

Timdef2000 · Pair Joined: 01 Aug 2009 Posts: 24

flat pre, eval flop

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