Online Poker Forum - Super Turbo : decrease rake %

uconnrounder · Two Pair Joined: 13 Jul 2008 Posts: 73

I've played a good amount of small stakes 9-man super turbos (over 30,000 sngs this year between the $7.50s and the $15s). Obviously, the edge a good player has over a bad player is minimized because there are fewer opportunities for opponents to make mistakes when it is nearly a 100% push/fold game.

Upon the introduction of the super turbos in mid 2008, FT recognized this as they made the rake a smaller percentage of the prize pool when compared to the turbo tournaments of the same level (i.e. $6.00+.50 turbo vs $7+.50 super turbo).

However, I feel that the maximum attainable ROI at the super turbos is significantly lower than that of a regular turbo tournament. While I understand that the rake % for a non-turbo sng is higher than it is for a standard turbo as well, the ROI disparity between attainable ROIs in the non-turbo vs turbo is not nearly as large as between the turbo and super turbo of comparable stakes.

In addition, the higher stakes super turbos are an unprofitable wasteland, where even the best sng players in the world are finding that it is very close to a break-even endeavor and are no longer playing them. This is the case even though the rake % is further reduced for the $100+ buy-in super turbos when compared to the $7.50 - $75 super turbos.

Below is a list of what I consider to be the maximum attainable ROIs at the low stakes super turbo levels versus comparable turbo sngs. Feel free to dispute these numbers, but if you have any less than 10k games at a given stake, your sample size is grossly insufficient (after 30k games, I am still experiencing good/bad variance that I've never seen before):

Super Turbo--------------------vs-----------------------Turbo
3.50 + .30 : 13% -------------------------------------- 2.00 + .25 : 18%
7.00 + .50 : 10% -------------------------------------- 6.00 + .50 : 14%
14.00+ 1 : 6.5% -------------------------------------- 11.00+ 1 : 10%
28.00+ 2 : 4.5% --------------------------------------- 22.00+ 2 : 8%

My estimated attainable ROIs at the turbo levels may be a bit off, but I'd imagine that they are certainly in the ball park. Either way, the average profit per tournament at each level is heavily weighted towards turbo sngs versus super turbos.

My suggestion is that the buy-ins for the super turbos be changed to the following:

3.75 + .30
7.50 + .50
15.25+ 1
31.00+ 2

With a sng type where the most of the solid regulars are achieving ROIs of roughly half my expected maximum at a given stake, this type of tournament is not even remotely profitable for the average player, and the variance is disgusting even for the biggest winners at their respective stakes.

I encourage Full Tilt to consider the suggested buy-in changes as this will reduce the variance and horrible swings that turn people away from these games. At the present time, the 3s-15s may load quickly, but the 30s don't load fast and anything higher takes forever. What I've shown above is a big reason for that. I feel that if the buy-in was adjusted slightly to lower the rake %, Full Tilt would make even more money because more people would want to play them.

deadmeat82 · Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:00 am Post subject:

I have absolutely no personal feelings for or against this but would like to say that this is one amazingly well written request.

DforDissent · Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:50 am Post subject: Re: Super Turbo : decrease rake %

uconnrounder · Two Pair Joined: 13 Jul 2008 Posts: 73

horseplyr · Straight Joined: 08 Jul 2009 Posts: 119

wow 10,000 games to make a comment. I did some research on the web about these, and there are quite a few articles with players giving advice that say they are doing great with a hundred game sampling. I could not stop laughing at them. Anyway you are god of the 7.50 and wptfuji is god of the 3.50 games. I have stalked you guys to see what im doing wrong. Started really well and then I think that variance thing hit me really bad. Not giving up on these yet, but thanks for the article, I wish more players did your type of research and published it. Btw how did you like the multitabling bug that hit last week.

jeppg1111 · Two Pair Joined: 28 Jun 2006 Posts: 69

i cosign this 100%

uconnrounder · Two Pair Joined: 13 Jul 2008 Posts: 73

Hah, I hated the multi tabling bug so much that I quit for the last 2 weeks. It made it physically impossible to 16 table with my setup. I desperately needed a break anyways because I was getting pretty miserable grinding....but that's why we need a better rake structure Smile

YYR00000815 · Pair Joined: 02 Jan 2009 Posts: 36

J2ThaP · High Card Joined: 29 Jan 2009 Posts: 12

lol 6% @ 7.5s being the best.

but ya, the rake on these should be at least half if not less than what it is now at all levels. The games take 1/3 the time as regular turbos and the rake is just slightly better at comparable levels, straight up highway robbery iyam.

jeffr8 · Posted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:51 pm Post subject:

This thread needs WPTfuji to be complete with the sickest super turbo grinders.

DforDissent · Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:33 am Post subject:

good point! where's The Champ at...

zamkin · Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:41 am Post subject:

I like the idea and agree with your reasoning.

WPTfuji · Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:57 am Post subject:

they should just red pro me. that way i dont have to care what the damn rake is.

-the champ.

Abufznuf · Straight Flush Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 432

Big +1 as long as it includes the Omaha ST's and it gets a few more people to play them!!

zamkin · Posted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:08 pm Post subject:

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