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LitUp43
Straight
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 102
Location: Pennsylvania
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 Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: Here's a fun hand, how would you play it (if at all)? |
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PLOH/L .10/.25 FRG
SB $5.50
BB $13.00
UTG $?
UTG+1 $?
MP1 $?
MP2 $71.00
CO $?
BTN (ME) $18.35 Hole Cards As 3s 7s 8h (is this a loose call on the button? i wouldnt think so)
Pot $1.87
SB, BB, MP1, and myself call the blind, so it's a four way to the flop.
The flop comes 4s 4c 5s.
SB bets out $1.25, BB folds, MP2 raises to $5.
My thoughts are, the SB either has a 4 or a decent low draw or both, and big stack flops the boat without a possibility of a low and wants to win it right there...stakes aren't high enough for me to lay this hand down just yet, but...what would you do w/ this hand? |
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jaejaejae
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 1365
Location: Down at the "River" getting my @ss kicked!
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Me personally... I would fold because I don't have a nut hand with this flop and $5 is to hard of a push for me here. But then again I'm not a very good OH/L and this is above my bankroll... I'm playing the .02/.05 tables for this game. I'd be interested in hearing what others think you should have done.. |
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vectorspace
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 1010
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Your preflop call is fine. With A3 suited, this hand has some value especially OTB in a limped pot. The 7 and 8 are not ideal cards but they might turn into a something. You're playing way too tight if you fold this hand and if you raise it up, you're just being a loose maniac.
Postflop is a snap fold. You have the NFD, but on a paired board facing raises it is useless as there's a good chance someone has already filled up or will by the river. Thus, you're rarely ever winning the high half and you're only drawing to the low half. Even with a naked A2, I'd fold facing a raise and reraise cold. With A3 though, you're drawing to 1/2 the pot at best and at worst you have 2-4 outs towards 1/4 of the pot. There's absolutely no reason to continue with this hand especially since this is a PL game.
In fact, I would still fold this hand postflop in the limit version of the game facing the same action. |
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LitUp43
Straight
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 102
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Man I guess i need to exercise discipline lol. Folding a double gut straight flush draw to the nuts high and low which i know would have scooped if the 2 or 6 of spades comes and i was in the hand with the only one at the table that would double me up in a HU situation, I had too hard of a time folding. I was willing to gamble with a draw like that...or was that too donkish making an overcall like that? |
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CitizenCain
Three Pair
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 2474
Location: Behind a huge stack of chips.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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Wheel straight flush draw in O8? Plus OESFD? At 25NL?
All in ASAP.
Ignore the other two posters here - they obviously don't play any O8, and/or have missed the 2 outs to a straight flush you have. |
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LitUp43
Straight
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 102
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| My thoughts exactly, I have a ton of outs to split the pot, and a few outs to take the whole thing. Big stack's not laying down the full house if I hit my monster draw. It kinda felt like an over call but my EV was to double up once i saw the flop and the big stack raised, so i'm not out of line with calling or even shoving here OTF? |
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vectorspace
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 1010
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| CitizenCain wrote: |
Wheel straight flush draw in O8? Plus OESFD? At 25NL?
All in ASAP.
Ignore the other two posters here - they obviously don't play any O8, and/or have missed the 2 outs to a straight flush you have. |
You are way off here CitizenCain. I play plenty of O8 and will play against you anytime. I honestly did miss the 2 SF outs. Even so, this is still a clear fold. Getting all in with this hand is a terrible play. The 2 of spades could easily be in one of your opponents hands leaving you with 1 out for the high.
Because of the paired board and the action ahead of you, you have to seriously discredit any cards that make a straight or flush as outs. They are not likely to make a winning hand even if we hit them. You also need to discredit alot of cards we'll need to make a low as they're likely in the other 2 hands.
2s gets us a scoop
6s gets us the high 1/2 and a good low, which may get 0, 1/4, or 1/2.
3 other dueces get us 1/2 or maybe 1/4.
The 3 Aces might get us the low 1/2, but not likely.
10 other cards give us the 2nd nut low.
Overall, this is not promising enough to continue against 2 other players.
However, shoving is the 2nd best play. If we put one of the other players on a naked A2 and the other on a flopped fh, then putting in a PS raise here likely gets the A2 out and gets us heads up against the fh. We would have up to 15 outs to 1/2 and 2 outs to a scoop. Our equity would then be ~ (1/2)[(15/41) + (26/41)(15/40)] + (2/41)(2) ~ 40%. We really need closer to 50% to make this play, especially since we have virtually no fold equity. If another player continues with A2, we're royally screwed as our equity then becomes only about 17%. Our equities in each case are likely even lower than this because of the likelihood that quite a few of our outs are in the other player's hands.
Cold calling invites a possible A2 to stay in against us, greatly lowering our outs and increasing the chance we only get 1/4.
Folding is the best play. Raising is the 2nd best, but still bad. Calling is by far the worst play.
Last edited by vectorspace on Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4350
Location: blogging a bit, again
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Full ring in a multiway limped pot I fold, in a raised pot PF I go with it. This spot just seems to be spew vs a bunch of unknowns. I've played a few hands of PLO8 too. |
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LitUp43
Straight
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 102
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Alright, well I can lay down monster draws before, but I did have a little bit of information about the SB betting out, he'd been throwing chips around like crazy since I sat down calling down everything, betting everything, so I wasn't worried about him having a naked A2, or much of anything for that matter. Does that change the perception of the hand? |
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CitizenCain
Three Pair
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 2474
Location: Behind a huge stack of chips.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 6:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| Full ring in a multiway limped pot I fold, in a raised pot PF I go with it. This spot just seems to be spew vs a bunch of unknowns. I've played a few hands of PLO8 too. |
If the pot's $1.87 (and 4 way) on the flop, then it's been raised. Min raise, looks like. |
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LitUp43
Straight
Joined: 03 Aug 2009
Posts: 102
Location: Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah there was a min raise preflop if I remember correctly...sorry about the miscomm. |
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Autosuggestion
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 2911
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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| LitUp43 wrote: |
| Alright, well I can lay down monster draws before, but I did have a little bit of information about the SB betting out, he'd been throwing chips around like crazy since I sat down calling down everything, betting everything, so I wasn't worried about him having a naked A2, or much of anything for that matter. Does that change the perception of the hand? |
I'd be more concerned with what MP2 is raising with then. Do you think he raises the nut low draw? Does he raise with only a 4?
If this was 6-max, or the stacks were shallower, then I would probably just get it in. Here, I think it's best to fold. |
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Zophar
Moderator
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
Posts: 4350
Location: blogging a bit, again
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:02 pm Post subject: |
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| CitizenCain wrote: |
| Zophar wrote: |
| Full ring in a multiway limped pot I fold, in a raised pot PF I go with it. This spot just seems to be spew vs a bunch of unknowns. I've played a few hands of PLO8 too. |
If the pot's $1.87 (and 4 way) on the flop, then it's been raised. Min raise, looks like. |
Didn't see that pot size, the HH was a bit strange to me. But with nothing invested, ,FR, w/a bet/raise in front of me on a paired board w/2nd low draw and NFD, I still don't see enough equity. The kind of action in front is pretty descriptive. |
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cubbies760
Drawing Dead
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 12157
Location: Sailing Away...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:43 pm Post subject: |
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I really don't like to play this type of hand much at all. The A3 tends to string you along if the low board doesn't include a 2, and the only board we are really excited to see is one for our suited Ace. Even the 78 could be problematic, unless the board is exactly 569.
As played, I think our decision has to be mostly dependent on how the $71 stack was built up @ 25PL. There should be plenty of read information on that particular player which should determine our fate. |
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CitizenCain
Three Pair
Joined: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 2474
Location: Behind a huge stack of chips.
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| Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| But with nothing invested, ,FR, w/a bet/raise in front of me on a paired board w/2nd low draw and NFD, I still don't see enough equity. The kind of action in front is pretty descriptive. |
I was thinking that the action would allow us to drive out any other low draws with a shove (giving us a very good draw to the low pot: nut/2nd nut), and probably a very strong draw to the high pot as well - OESFD, A hi flush.
I don't normally like to play drawing hands in O8, and almost always chuck them against a paired board, but, IMO, the strnegth of our draws to both pot halves justifies the push.
And frankly, at this limit, you'll see people 3-betting overpairs in O8 (and the donk min raise PF makes me feel this is a distinct possibility), so I think there's even a small (but significant) chance we're not even facing trips, let alone a FH, making our massive draws all that more valuable, IMO, if we even get called, which isn't a certainty at this limit.
So part of my decision is level-dependent, as well. May not have enough equity at any level beyond the micros, but I think we do at the micros in this spot. |
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