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cubbies760
Drawing Dead
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
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Location: Sailing Away...
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 Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:54 pm Post subject: Bring-In Completing in Stud H/L |
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I've been playing a lot of Stud H/L lately and I'm having some nice success at it.
I know that you generally never bring-in complete in Stud, but I'm seeing a lot of people bring-in completing. It's always with a low card showing.
Is this something that you want to do with (3) low cards? I'd think it's a way to get a pot going, but it seems like you'd be playing your hand more face up that way.
Please discuss.
EDIT: clarifying that I'm referring to bring-in completions
Last edited by cubbies760 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Zophar
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Location: blogging a bit, again
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| Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| When you say complete, do you mean bring-in complete? Almost never is there a good reason. Post a hand where you are considering it. |
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cubbies760
Drawing Dead
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Location: Sailing Away...
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: |
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| Zophar wrote: |
| When you say complete, do you mean bring-in complete? Almost never is there a good reason. Post a hand where you are considering it. |
Yes, a bring-in completion. I never see it in Stud, but I'm seeing it a lot in Stud H/L when the villian shows a low card.
Regarding posting a hand, I'm not considering doing it....at least without knowing the potential advantages of doing so. I'm still seeing it done quite a bit. I'll look through some of the hands to find some examples of other players doing it.
Last edited by cubbies760 on Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vectorspace
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
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Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 11:46 am Post subject: |
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It's ok in some situations. Much better than in stud hi, where you basically never want to do it. The 3 suited babies (esp. with a buried Ace) and rolled up hands are the strongest in this game and bringing in complete with either is ok if weaker players are going to call it the same as they would the bring in.
I still prefer to bring in small and go for a raise when someone raises behind me with one of these hands. If you're rolled up, you can keep firing at least until 6th in most cases. If you have 3 suited babies, you can shut down if you brick off by 5th.
A danger in raising with 3 suited babies is that you might fold out worse low draws. Be careful of your opponents holdings and don't raise it if you think they'll fold worse drawing hands. For example, if you have a made 7 by 6th with a flush draw and a player with KK showing bets, you don't want to raise him if a player with a draw to an 8 is sitting behind you. HU, you'd raise it every time though. |
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quick98ta
Royal Flush
Joined: 19 Nov 2007
Posts: 723
Location: Playing a "Rigged" game and beating it.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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IM still not convinced that very short handed and hu that you cant use bringing in for a complete profitably sometimes against tighter players in stud high or stud 8.
In full ring situations though i wouldent do it dont give any free information to your opponents by bringin in for a complete. |
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skeeter1114
Voice of Reason
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| vectorspace wrote: |
| A danger in raising with 3 suited babies is that you might fold out worse low draws. Be careful of your opponents holdings and don't raise it if you think they'll fold worse drawing hands. For example, if you have a made 7 by 6th with a flush draw and a player with KK showing bets, you don't want to raise him if a player with a draw to an 8 is sitting behind you. HU, you'd raise it every time though. |
I'm going to disagree here vector. If KK is betting out, and the guy with a draw to an 8, is calling, I'm raising this thing. Unless the board is 4 to a 7-low (and even then, betting is fine), I'm raising every time. The 8-low will probably stick around, thinking that his 8-x may just be good, or that he has the only low draw. If the guy with KK has made a strong 2 pair or trips, he's going to throw in a 3rd bet. If you're going to end up splitting this hand, you may as well try to get as much money in there, so you get half of whatever was put in from the 3rd person. And I'm certainly raising if there is a good draw with a made low. May as well get as much money in the pot as possible.
As far as the original question by Cubbies, I probably only complete with QQ or better on 3rd. Especially at the low limits, people will always complete if they are the high card, sometimes if they have a pair. A big starting hand should be completed to not only prevent some from chasing, but to build that pot. It would be harder for someone to put you on AAA on 3rd if you complete and lead out a street or two, than if you waited to 5th to raise. The thing with stud8 is that you're probably chopping the pots. If you think you have the best on either end, keep betting, and get the most money that you can, from the one who will not be getting any part of the pot. |
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cubbies760
Drawing Dead
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| skeeter1114 wrote: |
| As far as the original question by Cubbies, I probably only complete with QQ or better on 3rd. Especially at the low limits, people will always complete if they are the high card, sometimes if they have a pair. A big starting hand should be completed to not only prevent some from chasing, but to build that pot. It would be harder for someone to put you on AAA on 3rd if you complete and lead out a street or two, than if you waited to 5th to raise. The thing with stud8 is that you're probably chopping the pots. If you think you have the best on either end, keep betting, and get the most money that you can, from the one who will not be getting any part of the pot. |
Are you referring to completing after a bring-in, or completing as the bring-in?
I don't think you'd want to bring-in complete with [QQ] [low card], and I certainly don't think the only hand to warrant a complete after the bring-in is QQ+. |
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quick98ta
Royal Flush
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Location: Playing a "Rigged" game and beating it.
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Yes only completting as the bring in with qq+ is not a good idea it will be very obvious what you have. |
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Strasse
Forum ***
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Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| You should prob just fold QQ to begin with, no matter if you are the bring in or not. |
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hishga
High Card
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:21 am Post subject: |
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| Dont do it, it never applies well, and folding QQ with a 3 up is a bad idea, real bad, its so hidden if you smash a Q or hit a 3 you got a quality hand, plus you ahead and there is always a high hand, they gotta make a low to get a low, its not like any 3 low is 98% to make a low. |
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DforDissent
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Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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Location: testing my theory that my "best game to 100% focus on" is HORSE mtts
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: Bring-In Completing in Stud H/L |
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| cubbies760 wrote: |
I've been playing a lot of Stud H/L lately and I'm having some nice success at it.
I know that you generally never bring-in complete in Stud, but I'm seeing a lot of people bring-in completing. It's always with a low card showing.
Is this something that you want to do with (3) low cards? I'd think it's a way to get a pot going, but it seems like you'd be playing your hand more face up that way.
Please discuss.
EDIT: clarifying that I'm referring to bring-in completions |
It works great if HU or 3handed against super-tight folks who only play 3 solid cards (i.e. 3 low, a pair, or an Ace in the door with something half-decent in the hole) and especially if those nits rarely RAISE to your open-Complete.
It works terribly if there is a maniac who loves to cap on 3rd and 4th with air and premium alike.
It works TERRIBLY at a typical fullring Stud8 table.
In a tournament, it can go either way... in later stages it's certainly gonna scoops up the antes a lot of the time, but you'll also have a Q/K/A play back at you a lot and you won't know if they are thinking "he can't have it this time, I'm re-stealing!" or if they actually have a hand 
Long story short: Stud8 is not StudHi -- because your opponent might have 2-low in the hole to go with his high Door card, your open-complete has a good chance of getting a fold or just a cold-call, rarely a raise unless villain actually has something... and yes, the bonus is that you are building the pot representing a good 3-low starter so when your opponent hits a low card on 4th (i.e. BRICK!) and you hit another low card (whether it paired you up, or gave you 4-low) you can safely bet and expect him to fold 80% of the time... so it's like a position-raise in holdem, in a way, you will be continuation-betting on 4th a lot of the time (because your opponent will likely be first to act on 4th with the "higher" hand, so thus you are gonna be in position, possibly for the rest of the hand).
Jury's still out on doing the bringin open-complete in Razz, though -- it really depends on your opponent's trickiness. |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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Location: testing my theory that my "best game to 100% focus on" is HORSE mtts
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| Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Bring-In Completing in Stud H/L |
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BTW it is also a great thing to do when your opponents ARE playing back at you, but you have a LOW trips, since they will think their high hand is better than your 3-low-that-might-not-get-there and when you "brick" with a high card or two on 4th/5th and just call their bet you have major trapping potential on 6th and 7th, sometimes they have Aces-Up and will cap 6th until they realize you might have something better... he thinks you missed a monster low draw and it turns out you both were battling only for the high, that final pot you scoop is huge, that's the sweetest thing in Stud8, and one of the only times that "deception" is a key element of this poker variant -- normally "playing your hand face up" is not such a bad thing in Stud8 imo.
re. vectorspace vs. quick98ta: agree with you both... I play mostly HU and 3handed, so the open-complete is HUGE and crucial for beating the rake and/or building a stack in HU SnG. But at fullring, I definitely want to keep the pot small until a solid 4th street AND I want donkeys to limp in with me to get them committed to a futile chase to a half of the pot that I lock in by 5th or 6th street... but HU/3way it's important to be aggressive even when you are the bringin, and when your high-card opponent RAISES your open-complete, it's HIM that is playing his hand face up -- now you can fold air, and either call or 3-bet a solid starter, depending on what you think that call or 3-bet will make your opponent do on 4th... playingtheplayer, and all that stuff...
I guess that explains why there isn't consensus... it's shorthanded vs. full/semi-full:
| skeeter1114 wrote: |
The thing with stud8 is that you're probably chopping the pots. If you think you have the best on either end, keep betting, and get the most money that you can, from the one who will not be getting any part of the pot. |
True in fullring, even 5handed or 4handed... but HU and 3way, there is a HUGE majority of pots that don't see a showdown, simply because you represent a made low on 5th with a semi-scary board on 6th/7th so the high hand folds his winning-but-he-didn't-think-it-was 1pr hand (sometimes even better than that!) ... the bringin open-complete is sometimes key to getting these Win-Before-Showdown pots.
There's some Stud8 players I've seen that might have ATC in the hole (i.e. unpaired HIGH cards) and they STILL open-complete their 7 or 6 or whatever into a weak opponent, and by 5th street they have 3 low cards showing and they bet when checked to, and take it down right there vs. villain's unpaired high-card board ... then they try to get villain on tilt
by showing they had 3-low with NO PAIR, geez some maniacs are crazy... like a fox. |
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