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Gawdless
High Card
Joined: 25 Apr 2009
Posts: 5
Location: Toronto
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 Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 9:45 am Post subject: Pre flop play, Chris Ferguson |
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| I just finished this course and was shocked that Ferguson is teacing players that a standard UTG raise should be a min raise? I know obviously Chris is an exceptional player but that has to be the worst advice I have ever seen given to players in any training video ever. Since most of the beginner videos are geared towards micros players min raising is not going to push anyone out of a hand and is more likely going to get 6 callers to come along to see the flop with you. |
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vectorspace
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 1010
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| I totally agree. I hated this part of the challenge. Also, his never open limp philosophy is not very good either. You want to limp in early position with small to medium pairs so you still have implied odds when someone raises. If you come in raising and get reraised, you're gonna have to dump it preflop, losing about the same as you would have getting to see a flop. |
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phareal15
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1386
Location: da beach
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:37 pm Post subject: |
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| obv they are putting out incorrect videos to dumb you poker players down |
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KyFried
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 07 Jan 2009
Posts: 4829
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| Posted: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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at micro stakes an ALL IN raise in any position is'nt gonna get them donks off a hand.
so when you get to that final table at the wsop you just go for it. |
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Kam1972
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Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2181
Location: Lady Luck's house asking nicely for favouritism.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| vectorspace wrote: |
| I totally agree. I hated this part of the challenge. Also, his never open limp philosophy is not very good either. You want to limp in early position with small to medium pairs so you still have implied odds when someone raises. If you come in raising and get reraised, you're gonna have to dump it preflop, losing about the same as you would have getting to see a flop. |
Actually, what do you think open limping small pairs does? It tells anyone paying attention exactly what you are playing, but hey maybe you limp other garbage to cover it up. Varying bet size based on your hand strength is generally a horrible leak. Funny really see players quite regular still that do like 2-3x raise with semi weak hands, 4xbb with like AQ-AK and then 5x with big pp's hoping for extra money from calls. They might as well just turn their cards over preflop.
Still, if you happy advertising your hand strength and making it easy to put you on a range go for it. Chris merely suggests min raise from early postion for your range, and sure micro levels may not have any respect for it, doesn't mean all levels are totally clueless to fact any raise from UTG needs watching.
Lot of people don't play baby pairs from UTG or UTG+1, but no real reason you can't min raise it, as plenty of times table folds to you even from a min raise. |
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vectorspace
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 17 Dec 2007
Posts: 1010
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm not leaking range info by limping. I'll do it with low PP's, high connectors, big pairs. I'll also raise with these hands, so it's gonna be hard to put me on a specific hand. However, min raising is pointless. Your goal in a cash game is to build pots with big hands and keep pots small with mediocre hands. Min raising accomplishes neither, but gives hella good implied odds to all who choose to call. |
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Kam1972
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2181
Location: Lady Luck's house asking nicely for favouritism.
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:26 pm Post subject: |
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| vectorspace wrote: |
| I'm not leaking range info by limping. I'll do it with low PP's, high connectors, big pairs. I'll also raise with these hands, so it's gonna be hard to put me on a specific hand. However, min raising is pointless. Your goal in a cash game is to build pots with big hands and keep pots small with mediocre hands. Min raising accomplishes neither, but gives hella good implied odds to all who choose to call. |
Odd, you are complaining about min raising and then in the same post advocating limping with hands too, including big hands.
Fair enough if you mix up your bets based on postion or at least limp with various hand types, but on the whole limping is just bad. Had a guy yesterday limping with low pocket pairs consistantly and i robbed him blind using postion with utter junk cards when board had nothing low on it.
Don't get me wrong, fair enough with right hand and postion and previous limpers nothing wrong with it, but just think open limping is weak play on the whole. Still thats personal opinion, and lot of ways to play the game, and someone good post flop can make limping work for them no doubt. |
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LikeTheStorm
High Card
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| I agree with min raise at UTG, UTG+1 |
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Jac Bri Eas
High Card
Joined: 01 Jul 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| In Phil Gordon's "Five Common Leaks" video, he advices new players to open-raise the same amount pre-flop with any playable hand in any position. Chris Ferguson preaches a different gospel, obviously. Is the general consensus that Gordon is more correct? |
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Phishy0
High Card
Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:13 am Post subject: |
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I agree with 2x UTG raise also. I also agree with Dr Phil who suggests folding AQ UTG. This position is not the most profitable position to be in. A lot of risk for very little gain...the only people you have position on is the blinds if they play.
You can always call a re-raise. At least you will have a little more information pre-flop before increasing your investment. |
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wildqat
Three of a Kind
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 95
Location: KTUS
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| vectorspace wrote: |
| Your goal in a cash game is to build pots with big hands and keep pots small with mediocre hands. |
Or in a more general sense, you want to play big pots when you have an advantage, and small pots when you're at a disadvantage. Jesus's theory is that even when you have a big hand, playing it from early position puts you at a disadvantage, so you don't want to build as large a pot, because if you do, you're in a poor position to defend it. It's something he's been advocating for quite a while.
If it doesn't work for you, that's fine. Like I said, it's a theory, and like Kam1972 said, there's lots of ways to play the game. Not everything you're exposed to in the Academy is going to work for you. |
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wildqat
Three of a Kind
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 95
Location: KTUS
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| Posted: Fri Aug 07, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| Jac Bri Eas wrote: |
| In Phil Gordon's "Five Common Leaks" video, he advices new players to open-raise the same amount pre-flop with any playable hand in any position. Chris Ferguson preaches a different gospel, obviously. Is the general consensus that Gordon is more correct? |
Funny you should mention that. In the Little Green Book, Phil himself says he plays the raising game more like Jesus. The "5CL" advice is just a simplified version for less advanced players. You don't have to worry about position, the effects of changing table size on relative positions, or any of that. You just always open-raise 3x, and worry about position and table size once you better better understand how those concepts work. |
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G Goddard
Four of a Kind
Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 279
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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I also found this lesson to be a bit too simple minded, though its probably a step in the right direction for all the super passive players who start playing the game.
I'm not sure what a min raise is accomplishing in any position. The BB will pretty much call you in the dark and its relatively cheap for someone to play back at you.
He also says that players are going to respect your raise more due to your position... I highly doubt it, especially when it's a min raise and don't even think about it in micro stakes.
Also limping is bad? UTG and UTG+1 are great spots to limp 9 handed. Also if there's like 3 limpers and you wake up with 44 are you gonna raise it up? That's just reckless gambling really. |
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Kam1972
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 03 Sep 2008
Posts: 2181
Location: Lady Luck's house asking nicely for favouritism.
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| Posted: Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Jac Bri Eas wrote: |
| In Phil Gordon's "Five Common Leaks" video, he advices new players to open-raise the same amount pre-flop with any playable hand in any position. Chris Ferguson preaches a different gospel, obviously. Is the general consensus that Gordon is more correct? |
You will find that many of the challenges in the academy conflict, certainly some of the newer ones compared to the older ones, and even some that were there from the start. This is quite simply down to the fact that there is no "set" way to approach every aspect of the game, and so its good to be exposed to different ways and methods and then find one that suits you. The academy is there just to teach people solid princibles of playing poker and then you'll find a way to fine tune it to a game that fits you while following good basics.  |
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5hapeOfMyHeart
Pair
Joined: 13 Jan 2010
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2010 6:18 am Post subject: |
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Here's the silver bullet, guys and gals:
Check out Bill Edler's video on interpreting bet sizes. He recommends looking at the table tendencies in order to figure out what you should be raising for. For micro-stakes, a min-raise UTG isn't going to cut it to isolate someone with a strong hand. Perhaps 5x would be better. Look at what others are doing and try to emulate that as much as possible in order to disguise your hand. At .05/.10 NL, I find that 3BB from any position gives me honest callers when I raise with a strong hand. However, some tables will fold to a min-raise, and at other tables I get 2 callers and both blinds when I raise 4x. I'm sure that when a min-raise is worth $50 or $100 more, people take that seriously than when it's just 10 more cents. But you may also get a table where people try to take small amounts just as seriously. Play the table.
I always spend some time trying to find out how the table is playing before I head in. I will wait for the BB to come to me and never post. I spend that time observing a every hand so that I get to know the table and some players before I start. As play ensues, I play through the hand histories when there is a showdown so I get a sense of what people are raising and calling with relative to their position and stack sizes.
Hope that helps. |
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