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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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 Posted: Thu Jun 18, 2009 10:20 pm Post subject: I'm bound to bust one of these guys eventually, just not yet... |
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Good spot for the bare ace bluff? It's so hard to push these guys off a pot. Can't get them off low straights and flushes. Can't bluff a guy on the river after he cbets top pair and checks the next two streets. Of course it would be fine if they would do the same when I have the nuts, but I haven't been that lucky lately. They catch me bluffing a few times but won't pay off my monsters. It's so sad. 
I definitely don't make a habit of it, I'll only bluff once in a while. I just can't figure out how to beat these games. It seems easy enough with all the maniacs, but if you can't get paid off with the big hands and can't cbet or bluff them off pots, how do you make money? Could it just be a run of bad luck? I've got no tracking software for omaha so I really can't tell how much is me and how much is variance.
Full Tilt Pot-Limit Omaha, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Converter Tool from
Button ($23.57)
SB ($55.41)
BB ($54.32)
Hero (UTG) ($28.20)
MP ($35.96)
CO ($39.43)
Preflop: Hero is UTG with A , 3, A , 5
Hero calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, CO bets $0.80, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.55, MP calls $0.55
Flop: ($2.75) 3, 5, 10 (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.12, MP raises to $21.11, Hero folds
Total pot: $14.99 | Rake: $0.74 |
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francois8
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3927
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Once you limp, get another limper and a raise, this is a decent spot to reraise and hopefully get heads up. Playing against calling stations means you have to bluff less often and value bet more aggressively / more often.
I'd put a note on that person that lead out and then 3-bet you while you were holding the ace clubs. When you get a set, nut flush or nut straight against this person, go right ahead and bet that pot with it, they'll come along for the ride with whatever they have. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| francois8 wrote: |
Once you limp, get another limper and a raise, this is a decent spot to reraise and hopefully get heads up. Playing against calling stations means you have to bluff less often and value bet more aggressively / more often.
I'd put a note on that person that lead out and then 3-bet you while you were holding the ace clubs. When you get a set, nut flush or nut straight against this person, go right ahead and bet that pot with it, they'll come along for the ride with whatever they have. |
Thanks francois. Generally I have a tough time getting a large chunk of their stack in here preflop and can't pot the flop for at least most of my stack. I'll generally get the $2-$3 or so in and have to cbet against these types of players which, as you can see, won't fold anything. That's why I've tried playing these types of aces slower for calls or single raises unless I'm facing a raise and a call or reraise, in which case I'll play for stacks right there. Otherwise isn't it best to play this hand for set or flush potential against the stationy micros players that won't invest more than a few $ preflop?
I definitely put a note on this guy and waited to stack him later, but never got a chance. This has been my experience the last few days. I only try to pick really good spots to bluff, which I rarely do, and I can't pull those off, but I also haven't been able to stack any of them yet either with the exception of once or twice, which isn't enough to pay for the rest of the small pots I lose in the mean time. Should I just become more loose/passive preflop, limping and calling a wider range (except for some raises with good hands from late position) and just play straightforward on the flop? |
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francois8
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3927
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:33 pm Post subject: |
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For lower limits, I wouldn't out think yourself too much here. Stone cold bluffs (espeically on Friday / Saturday nights) can get expensive. But semi-bluffing with betting medium to big draws can be profitable as people will chase with lesser draws thinking that you're betting out two pair or something...
Best advice I can give you, and that I struggle myself with, is to try very hard to avoid tilting. When I tilt I start to chase weak draws (like HE draws or K high flush) trying to recover the money quickly and I wake up in the morning really mad at myself that I could blow a week's worth of winnings in a single night of stupidity. Hang in there, play solid cards, solid hands aggressively and you'll be OK. |
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ZachAttack07
Four of a Kind
Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 327
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks a ton francois. I'm just gonna keep grinding it out and trying to figure out the best strategy to play. I'm probably putting more effort into learning this game than any other so far. There aren't many other games with this much action, math, and strategy involved, and I could see myself playing PLO for the long haul if I can improve.
I think I need a good shorthanded read since a lot of the current books focus on full ring, and seeing cheap multiway pots until you hit the nuts just won't cut it at 6 max. I'll probably invest in either Rolf or Jeff's new shorthand PLO book, but I'm leaning toward Jeff's at the moment since I really enjoy what I've read of his first one. Any opinions on either author? |
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francois8
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3927
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Mon Jun 22, 2009 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Jeff Hwang's Pot Limit Omaha is a great read. Really helps you think through things "properly." Far more useful, in my humble opinion, than the PLO section of Doyle's Super System. I've not read anything from Rolf, so I can't comment there. |
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dawt biz
High Card
Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:19 am Post subject: |
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| francois8 wrote: |
| Jeff Hwang's Pot Limit Omaha is a great read. Really helps you think through things "properly." Far more useful, in my humble opinion, than the PLO section of Doyle's Super System. I've not read anything from Rolf, so I can't comment there. |
I just read Hwang's book, and it seems like the situations he writes about don't come up often enough. How often do you end up with a 13-card nut wrap and a flush draw against a lower wrap, or set over set, etc. Furthermore, the play at these stakes seems to be quite loose aggressive, which makes it harder to see enough flops to hit those huge draws.
Who knows, but maybe the best bet is to tighten up preflop, and then gamble a bit once you get to see it shorthanded. |
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francois8
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 10 Jun 2008
Posts: 3927
Location: getting bent over the bubble
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| Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 12:21 pm Post subject: |
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| dawt biz wrote: |
| I just read Hwang's book, and it seems like the situations he writes about don't come up often enough. How often do you end up with a 13-card nut wrap and a flush draw against a lower wrap, or set over set, etc. |
Yea, I took this to mean I was way too loose preflop. Its interesting that in his second book on shorthanded play, he has lots of examples where he has "speculative" or worse hands, but has position usually.
| dawt biz wrote: |
| Furthermore, the play at these stakes seems to be quite loose aggressive, which makes it harder to see enough flops to hit those huge draws. |
I think part of what Hwang was saying is that when you have hands like rundowns that can flop huge draws that you should seek to get in there with raised pots against multiple opponents. Also hands that can make low sets are vulnerable to lots of things / quite often favored over very little. |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1258
Location: testing my theory that my "best game to 100% focus on" is HORSE mtts
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: I'm bound to bust one of these guys eventually, just not yet... |
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| ZachAttack07 wrote: |
Good spot for the bare ace bluff? It's so hard to
I just can't figure out how to beat these games. It seems easy enough with all the maniacs, but if you can't get paid off with the big hands and can't cbet or bluff them off pots, how do you make money?
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I go through periods of time when I feel this way, too... If you play like a maniac, you get action and often the worse hand gets there by the river, or else your 3 barrel bluff (with 2 barrels semi-bluffs, of course) gets called down horribly light by bottom 2 pair or something. HOWEVER if you play super-nitty, then every time you bet out a made hand they all fold, when you check-raise a draw they fold unless they have top set, and when you check-call a maniac then river your draw he either checks behind or else folds to your donk-bet... no matter how big or small of a bet... and yet when you represent that draw that hit the river, those maniacs seem to have 2pair or a set already so they call and beat your hand the one rare time you bluff.
Yup, been there before. Go play the Party Poker $0.10/0.25 6max and you'll see the game really is beatable, you just have to be patient and bet-fold a LOT of flops, many times they fold to your bet, often they will slow-play a monster and you will be lost on the turn, but the majority of the time they will be raising you light (since you're such a maniac, you bet out most flops right?) and you can thus fold when you don't have a monster, eventually you can bet-shove when a HUGE favorite and it will make up for your rollercoaster up-and-down ride you spent the previous hour on. I guess it's like NLHE, you play ABC Poker, rarely bluffing, and eventually your consistent aggression (with very little risk!) will be over-reacted to and you re-shove all the way to Stackemville.
Just make sure you have at least 20 buyins at all times  |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1258
Location: testing my theory that my "best game to 100% focus on" is HORSE mtts
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ZachAttack07 wrote: |
I think I need a good shorthanded read since a lot of the current books focus on full ring, and seeing cheap multiway pots until you hit the nuts just won't cut it at 6 max. I'll probably invest in either Rolf or Jeff's new shorthand PLO book, but I'm leaning toward Jeff's at the moment since I really enjoy what I've read of his first one. Any opinions on either author? |
Rolf's books are fantastic... I have heard the same about Hwang's 6max book as well, apparently his book can help you kill the uber-nit inside of you that is holding you back from "luckboxing" your way to much bigger (though swingier) profits...
| francois8 wrote: |
I definitely put a note on this guy and waited to stack him later, but never got a chance. This has been my experience the last few days. I only try to pick really good spots to bluff, which I rarely do, and I can't pull those off, but I also haven't been able to stack any of them yet either with the exception of once or twice, which isn't enough to pay for the rest of the small pots I lose in the mean time.
Should I just become more loose/passive preflop, limping and calling a wider range (except for some raises with good hands from late position) and just play straightforward on the flop? |
Neither. Try buying in for a smaller amount (like half of the table maximum) ... or even the minimum. Play the same, solid game, and you'll be amazed at how often they will call your pot-sized bet on the turn because you have so little behind. The river is a brick, you put the last of your chips in (less than the pot) and they "have to call" with their 2pair, or even overpair (cuz they think you might have missed YOUR draw, yeah that's sure probable  ) ...and as a bonus, if you do buy in smaller, you can play the next level higher -- same profit potential (in $$$) as full-stacking the lower level but with far less of the "why won't they pay me off!!??" frustration.
I mean, put yourself in their shoes -- when you turn the 2nd nuts, you sure aren't going to fold against that annoying shortstacker's donkbet shove are you? You hit your draw, of course you will pay him off but it's "so unlikely" that he has that exact 2-card combo that beats you, right? Right?... disappoint that optimist. Show up with the nuts every time, you'll double-up or triple-up way more often than the frequency of your full-stack all-in confrontations.
In theory anyway.
Last edited by DforDissent on Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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