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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 1:50 pm Post subject: Poker Math Wizz VS No folding players. LHE 0.25/0.50 |
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I have seen a lot of threads and answers on this forum where players seem to use nothing but math to make decisions. Although I a a firm believer that Math is one of the most important tool to be a winning player, it should not be a goal in itself. One must adapt his (her) play according to the opponents. To these nofloders, preflop is not even part of the hand. It's nothing more than fixing the price to enter the hand, i.e. if they were bound to play that 9-3s, they will play it even if it means calling 3 bets. For them, the real hand starts with the flop. Then they adjust to what they hold and/or chase till river.
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HAND #1 A specialist in card chasing. Don't tell him he should have folded preflop, then on the flop will all the mathematical explanations. He'll just answer: yeah, but I won and you lost.
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Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Pre-Flop: T 7 dealt to Hero (BB)
6 folds, BTN raises, SB calls, Hero folds
Flop: ($1.25) 3 8 2 (2 Players)
SB checks, BTN bets, SB calls
Turn: ($1.75) 7 (2 Players)
SB checks, BTN bets, SB raises, BTN 3-bets, SB calls
River: ($4.75) A (2 Players)
SB checks, BTN checks
Results: $4.75 Pot ($0.20 Rake)
BTN showed 8 K (a pair of Eights) and LOST (-$2.25 NET)
SB showed 7 A (two pair, Aces and Sevens) and WON $4.55 (+$2.30 NET)
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HAND #2 Any Mathwizz can explain to my opponent that he was dominated after my preflop raise? In order to be dominated, you have to know what it means. He was never dominated. He was just going for a flush and with 2 of his suit on the flop, he is there till river and will even bet it if he missed it, just in case.
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Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Pre-Flop: A J dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls
Flop: ($1.60) 3 6 K (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB folds, Hero calls
Turn: ($2.60) K (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks
River: ($2.60) 4 (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls
Results: $3.60 Pot ($0.15 Rake)
Hero mucked A J (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$1.50 NET)
CO showed T 9 (a flush, Ten high) and WON $3.45 (+$1.95 NET)
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HAND #3 Here, go tell CO that he really was dominated. Told you, preflop is just fixing a price. He was bound to play anyway and then... flopped the flush. BB was ok to call my raise but did not have pot odds to see the turn and the river. Pot what? said he. And then added "I am here to play and have fun".
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Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Pre-Flop: Q Q dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero raises, MP folds, CO calls, BTN folds, SB calls, BB calls
Flop: ($2) 4 8 2 (4 Players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls
Turn: ($3.50) 5 (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls
River: ($5) A (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero folds
Results: $6 Pot ($0.30 Rake)
CO showed 9 3 (a flush, Nine high) and WON $5.70 (+$3.70 NET)
BB mucked 5 5 (three of a kind, Fives) and LOST (-$2 NET)
So to all fo us, players who want to learn and be the best, learn your math but don't swear by it. Know your opponents. If one very passive player raises preflop, he has AA, not AK, not KK. He has AA. If a usual limper starts raising everything that moves postflop, he has flopped a set. If another one keeps check calling you, he is chasing. The board will tell you if it's a flush or a straight. If there is no threath on the board, beware on the damn Ace on the river, it's always there.
In "Small Stakes Hold'em, winning big with expert play", the author suggets two preflop plays. The one for loose tables (6 players or more who will see the flop) works better for me when the VPIP of a table is more than 35%. But that alone won't make it. His "evaluating the flop part" is one of the most valuable poker lesson I have read. And it takes time to grasp. I am far from a winning player but for once I can defend myself at my limit. |
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suicideblonde1
Banned
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1975
Location: an animal trapped in a hot car
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: Poker Math Wizz VS No folding players. LHE 0.25/0.50 |
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| nienie23 wrote: |
| Know your opponents. If one very passive player raises preflop, he has AA, not AK, not KK. He has AA. |
I don't play LHE, but a lot of what you say is clearly extremely stupid. This quote I've picked out is absolutely mind-blowingly dumb, but there are plenty of other examples. |
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WhatASurprise
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 2071
Location: You come at the king, you best not miss.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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Can you please explain what this thread is about?
Also, shouldnt this be in Stories? Or do I need some sleep? |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject: Re: Poker Math Wizz VS No folding players. LHE 0.25/0.50 |
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| suicideblonde1 wrote: |
| nienie23 wrote: |
| Know your opponents. If one very passive player raises preflop, he has AA, not AK, not KK. He has AA. |
I don't play LHE, but a lot of what you say is clearly extremely stupid. This quote I've picked out is absolutely mind-blowingly dumb, but there are plenty of other examples. |
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Pre-Flop: A 5 dealt to Hero (BTN)
UTG calls, 5 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB checks
Flop: ($0.85) 3 8 9 (3 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG calls
Turn: ($1.85) A (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls
River: ($2.85) A (2 Players)
UTG checks, Hero bets, UTG calls
Results: $3.85 Pot ($0.15 Rake)
UTG showed K Kand LOST (-$1.75 NET)
Hero showed A 5 (three of a kind, Aces) and WON $3.70 (+$1.95 NET)
Passive UTG did not raise his KK preflop. When that guy raises preflop, he has AA.
It always amazes me when I pick a quote straight from a recommended book and it's called stupid. |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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| WhatASurprise wrote: |
Can you please explain what this thread is about?
Also, shouldnt this be in Stories? Or do I need some sleep? |
It's about beating loose-passive players who will play any 2 cards, when math does not count. I am not telling a story, just trying to figure out "strategies" to win against someone who calls 3bets with 9-5 of heart and flopping 2 hearts or 9-2-5. He does not care about beeing dominated nor about having any fold or pot equity. So how do you win against those players? I think the title of that thread is self-explanatory. |
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WhatASurprise
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 2071
Location: You come at the king, you best not miss.
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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You still don`t know how to beat loose- passive players? How long did you say you have been playing? You bet your good hands for value, you do not attempt to bluff them and you fold marginal hands when they show aggression.
The title is not self- explanatory at all, btw. In fact, most of your titles doesn`t make much sense to be honest.
And the thing about passive players always having AA when they raise is just stupid. You should be able to figure that out by yourself. |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| WhatASurprise wrote: |
| You still don`t know how to beat loose- passive players? How long did you say you have been playing? You bet your good hands for value, you do not attempt to bluff them and you fold marginal hands when they show aggression. |
I have been playing for five months now, the first two beeing very part time on a poker site where I could hardly find a table on a saturday night. I stayed there until I got the basics, and I mean the very basics (At first, I had no idea what a fullhouse was). But it was very hard to put any theory into practice on tables where 7 or 8 players will see the flop every time. 3 months ago, I started on fulltilt and I have learned a lot since. Like I said, I can defend myself. I will stick as much as possible to theory since I’ve chosen that particular category. This morning session ended up with a loss of 2.5 BB. A month ago, that would have been a 10BB loss. The only math I can use right now is outs and pot odds. After reviewing my losing hands with paper and pencil, I realize that I had made only one mistake that cost me 1 BB. Just this in itself is great, keep loses to a minimum.
Unfortunately, once in a while, I have a disaster session just like this afternoon. Out of 170 hands, I saw the flop 11 times. 3 winning hands including stealing the blinds twice. My real winninghand? Aj offsuit. 3 saw the flop wich was A-A-8, the turn: J. Do you think my opponents stuck around? I won 6 BB.
From the 8 losing hands, 4 were draws that either did not come on the river or were beaten by a better hand like this one here.
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Pre-Flop:K A dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls
Flop: ($1.75) K J Q (3 Players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls
Turn: ($2.50) T (3 Players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, Hero 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls
River: ($6) 6 (2 Players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls
Results: $7 Pot ($0.35 Rake)
MP1 showed A 3 (a flush, Ace high) and WON $6.65 (+$3.90 NET)
Hero muckedK A (a straight, Ace high) and LOST (-$2.75 NET)
I was not surprised at all to see a T on the turn because most of my Ace high straights are splitted. Then when I saw 2 spades, I was not surprised to see another spade on the river. I even thought of you: WhatASurprise. On that session, I lost 38 BB. That’s is my pattern so far. For the next 2 weeks, I’ll play catching up Poker, get all my money back and get crushed again.
The reason why I put this thread in NLH theory is because I have been reading a lot of threads and most of those about fixing leaks are nothing more than “math” advices which against loose players don’t really work except for counting outs and pot odds. I bet and raise my good hands for value, that’s why I ended up with that loss today. I don’t mind this anymore. I’ll get my money back, maybe tonight. I just wish I could get that bank roll of $150 to $300 so I can move up to 0.50/1.00
| WhatASurprise wrote: |
| And the thing about passive players always having AA when they raise is just stupid. You should be able to figure that out by yourself. |
That’s exactly what I said. It’s the lady who seems to think otherwise. Too bad she did not take the time to leave a “constructive” comment. |
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suicideblonde1
Banned
Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 1975
Location: an animal trapped in a hot car
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Poker Math Wizz VS No folding players. LHE 0.25/0.50 |
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Constructive comment: When a tight-passive player opens for a raise, he doesn't always have AA. If you ever put an opponent on a single hand, rather than a range of possible hands, you are making a huge mistake.
I'll also pull you up on a comment you made earlier in your OP:
| nienie23 wrote: |
HAND #2 Any Mathwizz can explain to my opponent that he was dominated after my preflop raise? In order to be dominated, you have to know what it means. He was never dominated. He was just going for a flush and with 2 of his suit on the flop, he is there till river and will even bet it if he missed it, just in case.
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Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Pre-Flop: A J dealt to Hero (UTG+1)
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls
Flop: ($1.60) 3 6 K (3 Players)
BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, BB folds, Hero calls
Turn: ($2.60) K (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO checks
River: ($2.60) 4 (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls
Results: $3.60 Pot ($0.15 Rake)
Hero mucked A J (a pair of Kings) and LOST (-$1.50 NET)
CO showed T 9 (a flush, Ten high) and WON $3.45 (+$1.95 NET)
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Firstly, the guy doesn't have to know he's dominated simply because you raised pre. Secondly, he isn't actually dominated. You don't appear to know what the term means, which is ironic. |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 10:03 pm Post subject: Re: Poker Math Wizz VS No folding players. LHE 0.25/0.50 |
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| suicideblonde1 wrote: |
| Constructive comment: When a tight-passive player opens for a raise, he doesn't always have AA. If you ever put an opponent on a single hand, rather than a range of possible hands, you are making a huge mistake. |
What I meant is that those very passive players will raise only safe hands. Look at my example of the guy who limped with KK. If he had raised, I might have folded. And that caused him to lose the hand. And when I write these things, I don't pretend to be right. I just look for some answers. And maybe I still do not grasp the concept of domination. But at least now, and thanks to someone on this forum, I know that if I raise AJ offsuit and someone reraise me and another one caps it, I better get a good flop.
According to some authors, T-9 suited from LP after a raise y a fold. I don't really like to say this. It makes me sound like those players who go nuts after losing to a loose-passive (also known as donkeys). That's why I thought he was dominated.
So far, I cannot put people on hands, not enough experience, unless it's clearly evident. But a "very" passive player will not raise preflop unless he has AA. Of course I will not entirely exclude AK and KK but so far, it never lied. Just today in a hand, 1 limper, 1 raiser, I called the raise, the next player, very passive, came alive and reraised. Well guess what, every folded to him. We did not see the flop.
Last edited by nienie23 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8190
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| Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:52 pm Post subject: |
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Dominated = You have AK, he has AQ. Your overs are better than his overs, you share a card, his best chance is to hit his 3-outer with the queen. AJo vs T9s isn't dominating since he has live cards.
Calling raises in position with connected cards isn't an unreasonable play just for the reason your hand illustrates. You get in cheap, flop a good draw, then play your hand strong. His raise on the flop bought him a free turn card if he missed and he hit his river card. |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:04 am Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
Dominated = You have AK, he has AQ. Your overs are better than his overs, you share a card, his best chance is to hit his 3-outer with the queen. AJo vs T9s isn't dominating since he has live cards.
Calling raises in position with connected cards isn't an unreasonable play just for the reason your hand illustrates. You get in cheap, flop a good draw, then play your hand strong. His raise on the flop bought him a free turn card if he missed and he hit his river card. |
Wow. Thanks a lot. This is clear and I get it now. And you did not have to use the word "stupid" to explain it.
What happens is that some things you learn from answers on the forum, you take for granted while you shouldn't. I got the "domination part" all wrong because in another thread, I posted a similar hand. I am on the button with K-Ts. One limper, one raiser in front of me. Right there I was called all the names because I was clearly dominated and should have folded. I did not call, did not fold, I reraised to make sure that SB and BB, 2 thight aggressive players, would fold. They folded and so did the limper. The raiser capped it and I called, defenitely hoping for a good flop. The flop gave me a K. I had five outs and the pot odds to play. The river gave me another K followed by some name calling at the table and in the forum. I don't mind the name calling. What I mind, and that's why I started this thread, is that the info we get sometimes is either wrong or useless at my level. Unless I am wrong here again. But to me, fold equity and putting pressure on a calling station who will see the river at all cost with his A rag, seem useless. I have to concentrate on having the best hand, making sure I have the pot odds to play a draw, beeing agressive but backing down when the board is threatening and finally, folding when it's hopeless. I am getting better at it but it seems it's not enough. |
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WhatASurprise
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 25 Jul 2008
Posts: 2071
Location: You come at the king, you best not miss.
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| You worry too much about whether you profited in a given session or not. The only thing you should focus on is that you are playing +EV and that your mind is in the best shape possible. |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| WhatASurprise wrote: |
| You worry too much about whether you profited in a given session or not. The only thing you should focus on is that you are playing +EV and that your mind is in the best shape possible. |
You are a 100% right here. I will not worry if I have a small loss. I still haven't had to put more money into my account. I worry about big losses of 30BB or more for the simple reason that I am not good enough to get back on track. Maybe I should not worry and just keep learning but I assume that to beat a certain level, you have to win more than you lose. And right now, these sessions always have the same pattern. I have JTs on BTN, everybody fold to me, I raise. SB fold, BB calls. BB will cold call anything. He had Ace-trash. Flop came A-A-J. A last example, I have T-9s on CO and I make my flush on the turn just to see another heart on the river giving, again, Ah-Trash, a better flush. Now, I am not whining about this. If there is something fair and equal in this world, it's odds. You flip a coin, the coin doesn't care if you speak chinese or french, if you are a man or a woman, 10 years old or 60. The odds are 1 to 1, period. I will get my winning hands sooner or later. But right now, these sessions of miracle happening to loose players, and not just against me, are my big problem. Maybe I should just quit in the middle of a session but I don't believe one can learn by quiting.
Now about the second part, the +EV. I will not say that my title is self explanatory so you can say it's not. (LOL) I want to focus on that +EV. The reason why all those threads using math to plug leaks are frustrating is that they are beyond my grasp. Everything I have learned so far has made me better although I will certainly have to go through the flop play again. But besides Outs and pot odds, I know nothing about math, +EV and Fold equity. I am sure there are books outhere about this, I may even have it right here, if not, it'll be here in 2 days.
ARE THERE ANY GOOD BOOKS ABOUT THIS ANYONE???????????
Last edited by nienie23 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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IABoomer
Moderator
Joined: 29 Oct 2006
Posts: 8190
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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http://www.twoplustwo.com/smallstakes.html
This book is written for the loose/passive many players seeing flops games that you'll find at the micro limits online, and the lowest limits live. |
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nienie23
Full House
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
Posts: 164
Location: Laval, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| IABoomer wrote: |
http://www.twoplustwo.com/smallstakes.html
This book is written for the loose/passive many players seeing flops games that you'll find at the micro limits online, and the lowest limits live. |
Thanks again. That's the book I am reading right now and it seems very complete and I will need a little more time to digest it. But even if I went throught it once, I still don't know much about +EV. Here is an example with comments about why I played this way.
Full Tilt Poker, $0.25/$0.50 Limit Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter
Preflop: Obvious raise or reraise for me, the player to my immediate right is loose and kinda passive. He clicked on the "call any" button. Hard to put him on a hand because I saw him call 4 bets with QTs on SB earlier. And that hand cost him dearly. He may sound more agressive here but he chases a lot.
Pre-Flop: A K dealt to Hero (CO)
MP folds, Someone raises, Hero 3-bets, Villain calls, 3 folds
Flopped a gutshot straight - 4 outs but since there are 2 hearts on the board, I don't like the Jh. Neither do I want to count any of the 6 outs to top pair. Actually 4 outs, there are enough hearts on that board. And since any A or K would put 3 to a straight on that board, maybe no outs at all. Now that I am writing this, I see that I may have been better off check-calling the flop and then check folding the turn.
Flop: ($2.35) T 8 Q (2 Players)
Hero bets, Villain raises, Hero calls
Turn: ($3.35) 4 (2 Players)
Hero checks, Villain bets, Hero folds
Results: $3.35 Pot ($0.15 Rake)
SB mucked and WON $3.20 (+$1.95 NET)
So, how does someone who uses +EV, fold equity or anything else would THINK that hand?
Last edited by nienie23 on Sun Feb 22, 2009 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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