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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2361
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 Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:40 pm Post subject: Heads-up RAZZ |
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So i've been playing a few HU HORSE sngs lately. when we get to the Razz portion of the game, it seems the game slows to a hault (in the few games i've played). representation becomes the most essential part of this game, and pretty much the other guy will complete the bet off the bring-in regardless of hole cards. for example if i have to bring in with a K and my opponent has an 8 he will surely complete the bet, making it -EV for me to call with a hand like two faces.
now with that little scenario in mind, how much should i open my starting requirements. if bets are being completed left and right and a lot of folding taking place on 3rd, by both parties, would it be a "bad" play to take a few cards off when having A2 in the hole but having a face door card to a completion bet with an 8 up?
secondly my next question is how do you play your premium starting hands in a game where a completion will guarantee your opponent will fold? say for example you start with A2[3] and your opponent has xx[J]. would you complete this bet here or would you flat call hoping he catches a good one and plays a pot with you, or are you better off just taking the few chips the completion raise will get you? |
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frequenicity
Four of a Kind
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Lancaster, PA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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For your first question, if someone is ALWAYS completing best with an 8 for their door, and you were the bring in, it can sometimes make sense to call especially with (A 2) in the hole. This is a drawing game, after all..and you can at least see 4th street to see how everything begins to play out. (this is advice only for a SnG...not ring game)
To answer your second question...I really see no point in completing a bet with a premium hand, especially if that completion is garunteed to make another person fold. For one, you want MORE people to stay in. Also, if someone acting later than you completely the bet, you can then put in a raise after them and build a nice pot.
As in all forms of poker, switching it up is still key. |
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byamamoto1
Bay Area Bidness
Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2361
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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oh yea i realize the strategies would be different in ring games and know that playing hands vary dependant on your opponents but for HU sng's in the example above with you have A23 and your opponent has a door K, the general principle would be to keep him and and flat call, correct?
the most important question i think i had was that in games where the completion bet is done almost every hand by the lower value card, where would you start your hand requirements, in terms of hole cards, in deciding whether or not to play the hand? |
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frequenicity
Four of a Kind
Joined: 03 Dec 2005
Posts: 270
Location: Lancaster, PA
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| Posted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, it would be correct to flat call..unless you are incredibly low on chips and you either want to take down the pot right there or think he will reraise(unlikely) and you can double up.
As for starting hand requirements heads up...I play a pretty loose game and would take almost any un-paired hand.....but I think that after you post the antes and your bring in, calling the completion really isnt that much more. It's kind of like limit holdem heads up. If someone raises your BB, you are getting 5-1 on a call...and there arent that many hands that arent worth calling there. |
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fmny
High Card
Joined: 24 Jan 2006
Posts: 8
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Heads-up RAZZ |
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| byamamoto1 wrote: |
| how much should i open my starting requirements. if bets are being completed left and right and a lot of folding taking place on 3rd, by both parties, would it be a "bad" play to take a few cards off when having A2 in the hole but having a face door card to a completion bet with an 8 up? |
In heads up Razz when people are completing with every good door card (i.e. they can't always have a good 3 card hand) you can definitely call the bet if you have two wheel cards and can usually call if you have two cards under their door card. Taking your example of having a jack up and two unders to his eight up, the worst you can be is a 2:1 dog (HIM:A28 vs YOU:67J). That's the worst case. Now if he has a card nine or higher in the hole then you're anywhere from a 3:2 dog to a favorite. You can at least see 4th. |
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jbrennen
Straight Flush
Joined: 16 Aug 2005
Posts: 422
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| Posted: Tue Mar 14, 2006 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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One statistic in HU Razz is that if your opponent will complete with any two down cards, you are at least even money to win the hand with a hand as poor as 7-8-T, regardless of your opponent's upcard. Taking pot odds into account, you can pretty much always call a completion with that hand or anything better.
But that's not where you'll make the tough decisions. The tough decisions come later, on 5th street and beyond. You can assume that as long as your opponent has a prettier board than you, he's going to keep betting at you. He won't always have the hand he's representing, but you have to at least give him credit for a decent drawing hand. |
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intellicom
High Card
Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:23 am Post subject: |
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| jbrennen wrote: |
One statistic in HU Razz is that if your opponent will complete with any two down cards, you are at least even money to win the hand with a hand as poor as 7-8-T, regardless of your opponent's upcard. Taking pot odds into account, you can pretty much always call a completion with that hand or anything better.
But that's not where you'll make the tough decisions. The tough decisions come later, on 5th street and beyond. You can assume that as long as your opponent has a prettier board than you, he's going to keep betting at you. He won't always have the hand he's representing, but you have to at least give him credit for a decent drawing hand. |
Your wrong. You have to take into the account the following streets. He gets value not only from the initial completion, but from the fact that he can semi-bluff on later streets, if he doesnt already have the hand. Your lack of information about his hand is also giving him equity. You dont want to chase a hand that you THINK you can beat if you get your hand.
To call if you have equity against a random hand, is NOT enough in razz if you dont have the initiative. You lose alot of value by having your high-card showing.
I see people making these mistakes all the time, and i love it.
Calling is really a weak play on 3rd in razz, if against a player that semi-bluff alot (which you should do, especially against a weak player).
An occational bring-in/raise with marginal hands is better, especially against an agressive player, since it gives him second thoughts before trying to steal against you. This is especially true in the early levels of a HU SnG. |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1249
Location: testing my theory that my "best game to 100% focus on" is HORSE mtts
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Heads-up RAZZ |
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| byamamoto1 wrote: |
So i've been playing a few HU HORSE sngs lately. when we get to the Razz portion of the game, it seems the game slows to a hault (in the few games i've played). representation becomes the most essential part of this game, and pretty much the other guy will complete the bet off the bring-in regardless of hole cards. for example if i have to bring in with a K and my opponent has an 8 he will surely complete the bet, making it -EV for me to call with a hand like two faces.
now with that little scenario in mind, how much should i open my starting requirements. if bets are being completed left and right and a lot of folding taking place on 3rd, by both parties, would it be a "bad" play to take a few cards off when having A2 in the hole but having a face door card to a completion bet with an 8 up?
secondly my next question is how do you play your premium starting hands in a game where a completion will guarantee your opponent will fold? say for example you start with A2[3] and your opponent has xx[J]. would you complete this bet here or would you flat call hoping he catches a good one and plays a pot with you, or are you better off just taking the few chips the completion raise will get you? |
I can't remember if I ever replied to the OP, but it goes without saying that there is no "formula" for winning at headsup... ESPECIALLY at a limit game, where a "maniac" might switch gears and become a nit when he realizes you have caught on, etc. Sometimes against a maniac I will smooth-call with an up King but 2 wheel in the hole, later I'll limp-3bet him with the same, and still other times I will "float" with air in the hole just to steal on 4th if he has shown he respects when I don't fold on 3rd. If my opponent is clearly a nit, then I will often fold that same hand because I know if I hit good on 4th he will fold a bluff but call a strong 4-low hand (while a maniac will often be too stubborn to fold, and will indeed RAISE when I show strength on 4th, since he knows if I brick on 5th I have at best 3 low cards so he can represent a stronger hand)
etc.
So you see it really depends on the opponent, and how much you think he respects you, and how likely he is to not fold after a certain street (i.e. some will NEVER fold on 7th and will call with QJxxx made hands so your 3-pair hand is unfortunately gonna lose to those stubborn bastages).
Overall when playing headsup SnG you have to prepare in advance for what kind of image you will "default" to at the beginning, and if a "reg" joins you, change to a good "anti-style" to exploit his default style... if he is capable of "mixing it up" then it might end up being basically a coinflip (and if that happens enough, you might suggest you go on each others' "avoid lists" to prevent time-wasting in the future) but when it comes to Razz headsup there are so many people who think they know what they are doing but don't, that you just have to figure out their "style" and exploit it and hope you don't triple-brick too often.
Also, make sure you don't play too many turbo tables at one time -- you might find you've got a 2:1 chip lead on a few of them and then suddenly one bad beat on one of them makes you donk off your lead on the others, and then you're on tilt for the night, screaming at your monitor "but I'm better than these guys, I can't believe I lost to that donk, and that other donk just won't die!" etc. etc. |
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DforDissent
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
Posts: 1249
Location: testing my theory that my "best game to 100% focus on" is HORSE mtts
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| Posted: Tue Apr 28, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Heads-up RAZZ |
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| fmny wrote: |
| byamamoto1 wrote: |
| how much should i open my starting requirements. if bets are being completed left and right and a lot of folding taking place on 3rd, by both parties, would it be a "bad" play to take a few cards off when having A2 in the hole but having a face door card to a completion bet with an 8 up? |
In heads up Razz when people are completing with every good door card (i.e. they can't always have a good 3 card hand) you can definitely call the bet if you have two wheel cards and can usually call if you have two cards under their door card.
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^ and that, in a nutshell, is WHY a lower card will almost always COMPLETE to steal the bringin... because if they DO have 3 low cards, there is always the chance that you will call with 2 low hole cards and a high upcard, thus they will be way ahead (and you might think they are stealing, thus very +EV for them) ... and if you fold your horrible hand, oh well, that's the antes and bringin, easy money, next hand please.
It's all about stealing almost every chance you get, hoping that eventually you will get the bringin to call light when you actually "have it", then hope you don't triple-brick  |
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intellicom
High Card
Joined: 27 Apr 2009
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: Heads-up RAZZ |
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| DforDissent wrote: |
| byamamoto1 wrote: |
So i've been playing a few HU HORSE sngs lately. when we get to the Razz portion of the game, it seems the game slows to a hault (in the few games i've played). representation becomes the most essential part of this game, and pretty much the other guy will complete the bet off the bring-in regardless of hole cards. for example if i have to bring in with a K and my opponent has an 8 he will surely complete the bet, making it -EV for me to call with a hand like two faces.
now with that little scenario in mind, how much should i open my starting requirements. if bets are being completed left and right and a lot of folding taking place on 3rd, by both parties, would it be a "bad" play to take a few cards off when having A2 in the hole but having a face door card to a completion bet with an 8 up?
secondly my next question is how do you play your premium starting hands in a game where a completion will guarantee your opponent will fold? say for example you start with A2[3] and your opponent has xx[J]. would you complete this bet here or would you flat call hoping he catches a good one and plays a pot with you, or are you better off just taking the few chips the completion raise will get you? |
I can't remember if I ever replied to the OP, but it goes without saying that there is no "formula" for winning at headsup... ESPECIALLY at a limit game, where a "maniac" might switch gears and become a nit when he realizes you have caught on, etc. Sometimes against a maniac I will smooth-call with an up King but 2 wheel in the hole, later I'll limp-3bet him with the same, and still other times I will "float" with air in the hole just to steal on 4th if he has shown he respects when I don't fold on 3rd. If my opponent is clearly a nit, then I will often fold that same hand because I know if I hit good on 4th he will fold a bluff but call a strong 4-low hand (while a maniac will often be too stubborn to fold, and will indeed RAISE when I show strength on 4th, since he knows if I brick on 5th I have at best 3 low cards so he can represent a stronger hand)
etc.
So you see it really depends on the opponent, and how much you think he respects you, and how likely he is to not fold after a certain street (i.e. some will NEVER fold on 7th and will call with QJxxx made hands so your 3-pair hand is unfortunately gonna lose to those stubborn bastages).
Overall when playing headsup SnG you have to prepare in advance for what kind of image you will "default" to at the beginning, and if a "reg" joins you, change to a good "anti-style" to exploit his default style... if he is capable of "mixing it up" then it might end up being basically a coinflip (and if that happens enough, you might suggest you go on each others' "avoid lists" to prevent time-wasting in the future) but when it comes to Razz headsup there are so many people who think they know what they are doing but don't, that you just have to figure out their "style" and exploit it and hope you don't triple-brick too often.
Also, make sure you don't play too many turbo tables at one time -- you might find you've got a 2:1 chip lead on a few of them and then suddenly one bad beat on one of them makes you donk off your lead on the others, and then you're on tilt for the night, screaming at your monitor "but I'm better than these guys, I can't believe I lost to that donk, and that other donk just won't die!" etc. etc. |
Nice post.
Although, I dont understand why you would call with king up against a maniac, even with two low-cards. There is just no equity, unless ur up against a random J, but you lose equity on later streets. With 24K you are even money against a random T. If you want to make a play against a random J I suggest bring in/raise, to prevent him from semi-bluff on later streets (something that is emphesized in SOR). If he three-bets, well then its not that bad.
But if ur up against a maniac, why not play more solid hands so you can crush him, it also lowers your variance with folding babybabyking 3rd, not putting too much of your stack at risk. |
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cubbies760
Drawing Dead
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 12157
Location: Sailing Away...
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| Posted: Tue May 05, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| 3 year bump, FTW! |
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asfispimp
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1770
Location: vegas
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| Posted: Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| intellicom wrote: |
| jbrennen wrote: |
One statistic in HU Razz is that if your opponent will complete with any two down cards, you are at least even money to win the hand with a hand as poor as 7-8-T, regardless of your opponent's upcard. Taking pot odds into account, you can pretty much always call a completion with that hand or anything better.
But that's not where you'll make the tough decisions. The tough decisions come later, on 5th street and beyond. You can assume that as long as your opponent has a prettier board than you, he's going to keep betting at you. He won't always have the hand he's representing, but you have to at least give him credit for a decent drawing hand. |
Your wrong. You have to take into the account the following streets. He gets value not only from the initial completion, but from the fact that he can semi-bluff on later streets, if he doesnt already have the hand. Your lack of information about his hand is also giving him equity. You dont want to chase a hand that you THINK you can beat if you get your hand.
To call if you have equity against a random hand, is NOT enough in razz if you dont have the initiative. You lose alot of value by having your high-card showing.
I see people making these mistakes all the time, and i love it.
Calling is really a weak play on 3rd in razz, if against a player that semi-bluff alot (which you should do, especially against a weak player).
An occational bring-in/raise with marginal hands is better, especially against an agressive player, since it gives him second thoughts before trying to steal against you. This is especially true in the early levels of a HU SnG. |
I 100% agree with this. Regardless of whether your opponent is a maniac or not, even if he is raising say (XX)6 and you have K2A, calling here is profitable only against PART of his range, he could have anything since he is a maniac, and if youre up against 765 642 etc you are calling way behind. Also, since he is a maniac, why not wait til you can bring in with a lowcard and get raised by another low card and reraise. I believe that in Headsup razz, unless playing a regular, why gamble against a donkey when you can simply grind them down. There is no hurry in Headsup razz unless the blinds are huge then you will have to gamble, but early on calling with a 10-K door card against a low card is -ev imo. However if you have a 9 or higher against another card that is a 9 or higher you can call with two babies in the whole, because youre not drawing behind since both of your doorcards wont be played in a showdown. Anyways after this you should play accordingly on later streets if you have say K65 against JXX and on fourth you hit an 8 and he hits again call, if you both brick fifth I suggest folding because you will be needing to hit two in a row... again wait for a better spot. On 5t if you ever have something like K10765 against QJ6XX always get as much money in as possible because you are guaranteed to be drawing ahead on this street. |
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