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vardis
Pair
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 38
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 Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:27 pm Post subject: Was this misplayed? |
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I haven't played enough yet to know all the strategy yet, so if anyone could give an opinion on whether or not I misplayed this hand, and if so why, I'd appreciate it. It seems to me that I got 80% of the money in when I was ahead...
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FullTiltPoker Game #170774208: Table Foothill - $15/$30 Ante $3 - Limit Razz - 15:43:19 ET - 2005/07/31
Seat 1: russcat ($180)
Seat 2: Vardis ($507.50)
Seat 4: pepsr1 ($0), is sitting out
Seat 5: weak_player ($727)
Seat 8: Perry Friedman ($125)
Vardis antes $3
weak_player antes $3
Perry Friedman antes $3
5 seconds left to act
russcat antes $3
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to russcat [Kc]
Dealt to Vardis [3c As] [Tc]
Dealt to weak_player [4h]
Dealt to Perry Friedman [6s]
russcat is high with [Kc]
russcat brings in for $5
Vardis calls $5
pepsr1 adds $300
pepsr1 has returned
weak_player folds
Perry Friedman completes it to $15
russcat folds
Vardis calls $10
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to Vardis [3c As Tc] [5c]
Dealt to Perry Friedman [6s] [3s]
Perry Friedman bets $15
Vardis calls $15
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to Vardis [3c As Tc 5c] [2d]
Dealt to Perry Friedman [6s 3s] [5d]
Perry Friedman bets $30
Vardis raises to $60
Perry Friedman raises to $90
Vardis raises to $120
Perry Friedman calls $2, and is all in
Vardis shows [3c As Tc 5c 2d]
Perry Friedman shows [Ad 5h 6s 3s 5d]
Uncalled bet of $28 returned to Vardis
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to Vardis [3c As Tc 5c 2d] [2s]
Dealt to Perry Friedman [Ad 5h 6s 3s 5d] [8c]
*** 7TH STREET ***
Dealt to Vardis [3c As Tc 5c 2d 2s] [7h]
Dealt to Perry Friedman [Ad 5h 6s 3s 5d 8c] [Qh]
Vardis shows [3c As Tc 5c 2d 2s 7h] (7,5,3,2,A)
Perry Friedman shows [Ad 5h 6s 3s 5d 8c Qh] (8,6,5,3,A)
Vardis wins the pot ($259) with 7,5,3,2,A
Perry Friedman: shees
Perry Friedman is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $261 | Rake $2
Seat 1: russcat folded on 3rd St.
Seat 2: Vardis showed [3c As Tc 5c 2d 2s 7h] and won ($259) with 7,5,3,2,A
Seat 4: pepsr1 is sitting out
Seat 5: weak_player folded on 3rd St.
Seat 8: Perry Friedman showed [Ad 5h 6s 3s 5d 8c Qh] and lost with 8,6,5,3,A
Chat:
Perry Friedman: that was ill
weak_player: sikkkk
Vardis: had the better draw, didn't i?
Perry Friedman: on 4th?
Perry Friedman: A356 vs a T?
weak_player: lol
Vardis: no, on 5th
Vardis: 532A on 5th
Perry Friedman: but you called with the T on 3rd and 4th
weak_player: don't argue with the pro
Perry Friedman: and then on 6th I was ahead again
Perry Friedman: So you were ahead on 5th and then 7th
Perry Friedman: lol
Vardis: yeah, but all in by the 5th, so being ahead on 6th doesn't count. :p
Perry Friedman: except you paid off on 3rd and 4th
Perry Friedman: it wasn't "all" in on 5th
Vardis: you didn't have a lot of chips in front of you
Perry Friedman: even more reason not to chase
russcat: this is Razz you cant argue about something that is barley a real game
Vardis: you were all in on 5th, I'm looking at the log right in front of me
Perry Friedman: but not all the money went in on 5th
weak_player: give it up vardis
Perry Friedman: you had to pay off on 3rd and 4th first
weak_player: you misplayed and got paid. stop arguing with the man
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Lancy Howard
Four of a Kind
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 283
Location: 2 hours from Atlantic City!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| I just think its another case of someone whining when they got busted. Just happens to be a pro this time, lol. |
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vardis
Pair
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ok thanks. When a pro and the rest of the table was sitting there telling me how badly I played a hand, I admit I started to get a little rattled, especially when the same sort of situation happened two or three hands later.
I mean, if it was a bad play, I'd definitely like to know why... I went to twodimes, and it showed me as 35% to win on 3rd, 27% on 4th, and 60% on 5th, so it seems like I definitely had pot odds for both calls.
Ahh well, I suppose I shouldn't have let it get to me.  Thanks again. |
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pronline
High Card
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Houthalen, Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:51 pm Post subject: |
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I dont think it was a bad play, you just got lucky, started with a ten low.
That will not happen to you everytime you play. |
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Lancy Howard
Four of a Kind
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 283
Location: 2 hours from Atlantic City!
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:25 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| pronline wrote: |
I dont think it was a bad play, you just got lucky, started with a ten low.
That will not happen to you everytime you play. |
No, it wont happen everytime, but friendman had a pair of 5's already. He has potential to get ruined there as well. And he did by drawing an 8 and Q.
Thats poker. |
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GripHoldOn
Moderator
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 2098
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| If you know that Perry plays tight in the Razz ring games, you should not be calling his complete with a doorcard ten. If you had an ace up and your ten was underneath you'd potentially have a chance to bluff the pot, but you should have known Perry was in there with at least a seven and probably a six, so why play the ten at all? After you caught good on all of the subsequent streets you had to continue with the hand but you should not have played a ten from the outset. |
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triple h
High Card
Joined: 24 Jun 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| The odds are say on 3rd Street Perry has a premium hand which he did you you had a Ten, then you're 30% or so to win the hand. When Perry catches again on 4th, that's when you should have just put the hand down. There's no sense of trying to call down a ten, and although on 5th you did make the better draw, you were still pretty close and Perry could have easily closed the door by hitting a 6 low with 3 cards to come. With the ten even perfect in the hole, you would have to hit 3 cards of 4 to do anything. Not good odds in my opinion. In rare situations where if you think you can take the pot away later say if Perry's got a 7 you have a T A 2 and you call, Perry catches poor say a King, you catch a 3, you now hold the lead. But if not 3rd street, 4th for sure. Nice hit though. |
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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| GripHoldOn wrote: |
| If you know that Perry plays tight in the Razz ring games, you should not be calling his complete with a doorcard ten. If you had an ace up and your ten was underneath you'd potentially have a chance to bluff the pot, but you should have known Perry was in there with at least a seven and probably a six, so why play the ten at all? After you caught good on all of the subsequent streets you had to continue with the hand but you should not have played a ten from the outset. |
Grip has it right. After you decided to play the T, the hand play was fine. But calling with a T with 2 good low cards behind you was suspect, but then calling a raise from one of these hands is worse, especially since two of your key cards (4 and 6) are out, and it's hard for me to be on a complete steal there since you limped with two low cards behind you, which means I am putting you on two good cards down.
One you caught on 4th, if your hand was playable on 3rd for a raise, you probably have to call on 4th. And clearly, you have to play on 5th with your draw, but raising is again suspect, when I am showing 3 good low cards. You don't KNOW that I am paired, and you could be drawing very thin given my board. It's actually somewhat less likely that I have a pair (since I probably didn't start paired, and you had a 3 and 5 in your hand, which were the next two upcards *I* got... so there are fewer ways for me to be paired). As it turns out, the 5 *did* pair me... such is Razz!  |
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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| triple h wrote: |
| The odds are say on 3rd Street Perry has a premium hand which he did you you had a Ten, then you're 30% or so to win the hand. When Perry catches again on 4th, that's when you should have just put the hand down. There's no sense of trying to call down a ten, and although on 5th you did make the better draw, you were still pretty close and Perry could have easily closed the door by hitting a 6 low with 3 cards to come. With the ten even perfect in the hole, you would have to hit 3 cards of 4 to do anything. Not good odds in my opinion. In rare situations where if you think you can take the pot away later say if Perry's got a 7 you have a T A 2 and you call, Perry catches poor say a King, you catch a 3, you now hold the lead. But if not 3rd street, 4th for sure. Nice hit though. |
Actually, even though I said in my post that you probably have to call on 4th after improving, your odds actually drop significantly on 4th. But given the pot, you still probably have to call a single small bet on 4th and then hope I brick on 5th for the big bet street.
Factoring in dead cards, here are the odds on each street:
3rd:
35% to 65%
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1117340
4th:
27.3% to 72.7%
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1117334
5th:
59% to 41%
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1117327
Not that this matters, since there was no more betting:
6th:
30.7% to 69.3%
http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1117346 |
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pronline
High Card
Joined: 14 Jul 2005
Posts: 14
Location: Houthalen, Belgium
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Haha, more badbeats please, this is funny.  |
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vardis
Pair
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 38
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Perry Friedman wrote: |
| GripHoldOn wrote: |
| If you know that Perry plays tight in the Razz ring games, you should not be calling his complete with a doorcard ten. If you had an ace up and your ten was underneath you'd potentially have a chance to bluff the pot, but you should have known Perry was in there with at least a seven and probably a six, so why play the ten at all? After you caught good on all of the subsequent streets you had to continue with the hand but you should not have played a ten from the outset. |
Grip has it right. After you decided to play the T, the hand play was fine. But calling with a T with 2 good low cards behind you was suspect, but then calling a raise from one of these hands is worse, especially since two of your key cards (4 and 6) are out, and it's hard for me to be on a complete steal there since you limped with two low cards behind you, which means I am putting you on two good cards down.
One you caught on 4th, if your hand was playable on 3rd for a raise, you probably have to call on 4th. And clearly, you have to play on 5th with your draw, but raising is again suspect, when I am showing 3 good low cards. You don't KNOW that I am paired, and you could be drawing very thin given my board. It's actually somewhat less likely that I have a pair (since I probably didn't start paired, and you had a 3 and 5 in your hand, which were the next two upcards *I* got... so there are fewer ways for me to be paired). As it turns out, the 5 *did* pair me... such is Razz! |
 That definitely makes sense Perry (and Grip), thanks for taking the time to go over it.
Not knowing that you play tight, and just coming from a lower limit game where I was getting bluffed off pots more than I should have, I convinced myself that you paired by 5th and was determined not to be pushed around, so re-raised. It turned out to be true, but was poor play, because at best I'm 60-40 and at worst in big trouble. And that's giving myself credit for knowing those odds, either that you paired or my odds to win if you paired, which I didn't.
Well, I'm definitely going to go check out the book you suggested. While I was aware that I might have been putting my neck out there on third calling from early position, I wasn't thinking about a lot of the stuff you mentioned here, which I should be if I want to improve my game.
Thanks again. |
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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| vardis wrote: |
That definitely makes sense Perry (and Grip), thanks for taking the time to go over it.
...
Well, I'm definitely going to go check out the book you suggested. While I was aware that I might have been putting my neck out there on third calling from early position, I wasn't thinking about a lot of the stuff you mentioned here, which I should be if I want to improve my game.
Thanks again. |
You are quite welcome. I know sometimes my comments come off snippy or whiny, but when I am playing on Full Tilt Poker, I am always trying to educate and help others, especially in the lower limit games like my stud table. I realize a lot of people who come play with the pros may not be experienced in whatever game they are playing, and it's always a pleasure to help out.
Razz is a particularly mathematical game, and in stud games in general, it is important to always keep track of what key cards are out. Knowing the cards which are key to you AND the ones that are key to your opponents, is very important.
In razz, if you have a hand like A35 and the other player's have door cards like 2 2 4 4 6 (an extreme example), your hand goes way down in value. Conversely, if your have is something like 246 and the upcards around you are the same 2 2 4 4 6, you have a great hand. Having other people showing the cards which are already in your hand is a powerful thing in razz, because it decreases your chances of pairing. Of most importance is if your door card is "counterfeited", because pairing your door card in razz is even worse than pairing a hidden card. I'll occasional "snow" (a term for a particular type of bluff) with something like 222 because I am unlikely to pair my doorcard AND my opponent(s) are unlikely to have the case 2 and have a smooth draw.
There are so many different small elements to the various stud games, far more so than in Hold'em, and that is why I generally enjoy those games more. In stud and stud hi/lo you have plays where you can manipulate multi-way pots and use players against one another in ways you can't do in flop games because you are more certain of what type of hands or draws your opponents have. And being observant and having a good memory and a mathematical mind also come more into play.
I hope this all helps. |
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sgspecial
Full House
Joined: 19 Jan 2006
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: |
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I know this is probably a moot point by now, but you're both maniacs for capping on 5th street....
| vardis wrote: |
Ok thanks. When a pro and the rest of the table was sitting there telling me how badly I played a hand, I admit I started to get a little rattled, especially when the same sort of situation happened two or three hands later.
I mean, if it was a bad play, I'd definitely like to know why... I went to twodimes, and it showed me as 35% to win on 3rd, 27% on 4th, and 60% on 5th, so it seems like I definitely had pot odds for both calls.
Ahh well, I suppose I shouldn't have let it get to me. Thanks again. |
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Jaconda78
Moderator
Joined: 06 Jul 2005
Posts: 4179
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I just wanted to throw in a quick thanks to Mr. Friedman for taking the time to post on here and explain things to those of us that don't play RAZZ all that well (err, like me...). Hopefully you'll be able to post more often now that the main tournament season is in a lull. |
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Perry Friedman
Full Tilt Pro
Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: |
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| Jaconda78 wrote: |
| I just wanted to throw in a quick thanks to Mr. Friedman for taking the time to post on here and explain things to those of us that don't play RAZZ all that well (err, like me...). Hopefully you'll be able to post more often now that the main tournament season is in a lull. |
You are quite welcome.
As for the "tournament season", I am currently in Australia, having just played in the Aussie Millions!
Perry |
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