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terry19660401
Full House
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 236
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 Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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| sixandfour wrote: |
| terry19660401 wrote: |
Good advice, take note all players. Don't play on this site
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And with that statement, you can throw all your pretenses of objectivity out the window. |
Glad to see your still my no1 fan six  |
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fletch_smf
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 4501
Location: Brisneyland
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| Posted: Mon Sep 21, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| terry19660401 wrote: |
| 2- again why would Virgin Atlantic and British Airways risk their blue chip company reputations in a price fixing scam? because they got greedy and sorry if you dont like it but VA and BA are both far more reputable companies than any casino/poker site will ever be. |
1. Terry, price fixing is a different thing, obviously. It's the equivalent of Stars and Tilt getting together and deciding how much rake they are going to charge. And it's obviously a far easier method of making money then deciding to rig the RNG in an undetectable manner.
2.Price fixing also only requires a person or two to implement it at each company. Developing and implementing software requires a much larger number of people who would need to be involved, and there would be a much larger chance that someone could spill the beans.
3. Price fixing guarantees a larger return. There is no evidence that any RNG rigging would increase profit in any way. |
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terry19660401
Full House
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| fletch_smf wrote: |
| terry19660401 wrote: |
| 2- again why would Virgin Atlantic and British Airways risk their blue chip company reputations in a price fixing scam? because they got greedy and sorry if you dont like it but VA and BA are both far more reputable companies than any casino/poker site will ever be. |
1. Terry, price fixing is a different thing, obviously. It's the equivalent of Stars and Tilt getting together and deciding how much rake they are going to charge. And it's obviously a far easier method of making money then deciding to rig the RNG in an undetectable manner.
2.Price fixing also only requires a person or two to implement it at each company. Developing and implementing software requires a much larger number of people who would need to be involved, and there would be a much larger chance that someone could spill the beans.
3. Price fixing guarantees a larger return. There is no evidence that any RNG rigging would increase profit in any way. |
Fletch,
The point of the post was to highlight the weakness of the "why would FT risk it" argument. We are not talking about a charitable organisation here, FT sole purpose is to make as much profit as possible, so if it was possible to rig the RNG to a point where it was virtually unnoticeable to the players but increase FT's profits by even a minute margin they would do it.
I accept there is no evidence (at the moment) that any rigging would increase profits for FT, however what other reasons would there be for rigging?
So i think we should stick with the "is FT rigged" and if so "how" and refrain from the "why would they do it"  |
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fletch_smf
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 4501
Location: Brisneyland
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| Posted: Tue Sep 22, 2009 7:27 pm Post subject: |
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| terry19660401 wrote: |
| The point of the post was to highlight the weakness of the "why would FT risk it" argument. We are not talking about a charitable organisation here, FT sole purpose is to make as much profit as possible, so if it was possible to rig the RNG to a point where it was virtually unnoticeable to the players but increase FT's profits by even a minute margin they would do it. |
I disagree with that. The fact that they could break the "law" to increase profit does not mean they would.
| terry19660401 wrote: |
| I accept there is no evidence (at the moment) that any rigging would increase profits for FT, however what other reasons would there be for rigging? |
There would be no other reason.
| terry19660401 wrote: |
| So i think we should stick with the "is FT rigged" and if so "how" and refrain from the "why would they do it" |
Except that "Why?" is the crux of the argument. A lot of money and man hours would have had to go in to designing the RNG, and they need to recoup all that they spend on it, before they can make a profit. To have that outlay for a system that may or may not increase profit is bad business. They would have needed to work out how much profit they could make from it before they spent any money on building it. Then put that against the risk of the damages that would be done if they were caught. |
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URI_Stunner
High Card
Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:54 am Post subject: I dont know if this site is rigged but here may be proof... bad BEAT??? |
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I was heads up vs. Bribanny and I held 6h 10d
Bribanny is in the small blind and simply calls so I decide to raise with 6 10 to $2. Bribanny calls and we see flop.
Flop comes
6d Kd 8s
I decide to bet $3 into pot to try and take it down with bottom pair. Bribanny calls.
Turn comes an
Ad
Now I have a flush draw and bet another $3 into pot at which point Bribanny goes all in. Because of the non-raise preflop I decide to call in this instance believing that I may be ahead at this point even with the high cards on the board.
Bribbany turns over Q 10 off suit neither is a diamond.
At this point I am ahead in this hand. His 10 is no good because it would also pair my ten and give me two pair. He has two queens that are outs but the third queen would give me a flush. Also has three jacks which are outs and not diamonds. Has a total of five outs and he hits a non diamond J on the river. 
I truly believe that this site is rigged ... I mean I'm a pretty solid player and have been killed on Full tilt and I am done depositing money on this site. If I was being beaten by making bad calls then I would accept it as my fault and not feel this way. However I know for sure that this is my last deposit on this site as I have been able to make money but it seems to go faster on bad beats such as this one and it just makes me sick that I can never get ahead. Believe what you want but I can say that this is the last time I will feel sick about getting beaten the wrong way over and over. |
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Venus10
High Card
Joined: 28 Apr 2009
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:48 am Post subject: Re: I dont know if this site is rigged but here may be proof... bad BEAT??? |
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| URI_Stunner wrote: |
| I truly believe that this site is rigged ... I mean I'm a pretty solid player and have been killed on Full tilt and I am done depositing money on this site. If I was being beaten by making bad calls then I would accept it as my fault and not feel this way. However I know for sure that this is my last deposit on this site as I have been able to make money but it seems to go faster on bad beats such as this one and it just makes me sick that I can never get ahead. Believe what you want but I can say that this is the last time I will feel sick about getting beaten the wrong way over and over. |
Preach it brother! Anyone with half a brain cell can see the fraud that is FT Poker. Bad beats with good calls are de riguer on Full Tilt and the sooner everyone settles up with that the happier you will be.  |
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fletch_smf
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 4501
Location: Brisneyland
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:56 am Post subject: Re: I dont know if this site is rigged but here may be proof... bad BEAT??? |
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| URI_Stunner wrote: |
| Blah blah bad beat, story. I lost a 4 to 1 hand. Whine whine. |
Welcome to the forums. Good Luck at the tables. |
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Alandariel
High Card
Joined: 19 Sep 2009
Posts: 8
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:30 pm Post subject: |
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| terry19660401 wrote: |
1- please highlight the rediculous statements? thought i just highlighted some clear errors in one of your posts, but please feel free to enlighten me
2- again why would Virgin Atlantic and British Airways risk their blue chip company reputations in a price fixing scam? because they got greedy and sorry if you dont like it but VA and BA are both far more reputable companies than any casino/poker site will ever be.
3- using your exaggerated numbers i wouldnt call 900,000 extra dollars a year pocket change,
4- who from ft would face jail? who would prosecute the owners? please clarify as you obviously have all the answers. |
No point in debating against a brick wall. If your mind is not open to other possibilities, especially when those possibilities are much more probable than your own theories, then you do not belong in this thread. I won't give you the self satisfaction of disproving all of your statements yet again, and I apologize to FTP as a whole for not doing so; it's honestly just not worth my time to explain myself so clearly and still not be understood.
As for URI_Stunner...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mARvhK1CtD4 <- four outs
But, that doesn't happen, right? Let's see it again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CWCwTSDIN4
In the above video, hand 5 wins with only two outs! Hand 4 wins from way behind preflop. Hand 3 and 4 both win with four outs, and hand 5 comes from way behind to take the pot.
So yeah, when you're ahead, you will most DEFINITELY, ALWAYS win, right? Tell that to these guys.
Anyway, have fun on whatever site you choose, but you will lose your money faster than a heroin addict in Los Angeles if you think you can dodge every bullet. |
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Ambur_K
Pair
Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 6:28 am Post subject: |
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Hi again!
The question “what is the advantage of manipulating the rng” was asked in several posts. Here are is a simple mathematical view on this topic. Because in the past there were complains about to complicated posts I will keep the example as easy as possible.
The statement is: a rigged rng is theoretical able too multiply the profit of a site. So the worth of “rigging” is very high.
When players play on a site their invested money produces rake for the site. Due to winnings and losses money flows between the players. The question is, if it is irrelevant for the profit of the poker-site in which way the money flows.
Two investigate the problem lets take two very different types of players:
1.The withdraw player (bankroll 50$)
This player stays at the same buy-in level. The winnings he make are directly withdrawn to give the player real profit.
2.The investor (starting bankroll 50$)
The investor plays to increase his bankroll. After his bankroll is high enough he goes up in the level of buy-ins (for tourney) or blind-levels (cash games). The winnings this player makes are re-invested for higher buy ins.
Now lets have the look how much rake a site makes if both players win 50$.
If the withdraw player gets 50$ these are withdrawn. These 50$ produces no rake in the future.
If the investor wins 50$ he can double up his buy-in or blind-levels. This results in doubling (approximately) the rake of a player for the site. The 50$ produces still rake for the site.
This easy example could be transferred to other players behavior (like bankrollmanagement and frequency of playing).
One can characterize a value like expected rake/dollar or rake/day for each playing style. These values (as shown above) depends strongly on player styles.
To estimate the worth of “rigging” a very complex calculation has to be done, which implies the distribution of playing styles on a site and motivational aspects.
But as the example shows favoring a certain playing style can multiply the profit of a site.
Regards,
Ambur. |
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OrieJr
Full House
Joined: 30 Jun 2009
Posts: 189
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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Now lets have the look how much rake a site makes if both players win 50$.
If the withdraw player gets 50$ these are withdrawn. These 50$ produces no rake in the future.
If the investor wins 50$ he can double up his buy-in or blind-levels. This results in doubling (approximately) the rake of a player for the site. The 50$ produces still rake for the site.
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You are forgetting that the withdraw player is a winning player and constantly has money deposited to win more with. |
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slashb1
High Card
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Poker is a game full of bad beats, good choices that lead to bad results, bad choices that lead to good results. I think it would be good for full tilt to somehow make bad beat jackpots for all of the various catagories of play they have. ie, one for micro ring games, one for micro sng, one for micro mtt, and so on. |
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terry19660401
Full House
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Alandariel wrote: |
| terry19660401 wrote: |
1- please highlight the rediculous statements? thought i just highlighted some clear errors in one of your posts, but please feel free to enlighten me
2- again why would Virgin Atlantic and British Airways risk their blue chip company reputations in a price fixing scam? because they got greedy and sorry if you dont like it but VA and BA are both far more reputable companies than any casino/poker site will ever be.
3- using your exaggerated numbers i wouldnt call 900,000 extra dollars a year pocket change,
4- who from ft would face jail? who would prosecute the owners? please clarify as you obviously have all the answers. |
No point in debating against a brick wall. If your mind is not open to other possibilities, especially when those possibilities are much more probable than your own theories, then you do not belong in this thread. I won't give you the self satisfaction of disproving all of your statements yet again, and I apologize to FTP as a whole for not doing so; it's honestly just not worth my time to explain myself so clearly and still not be understood. |
Lol your onto your third post and you think you've been debating, at least most of the regulars here try and back up a particular statement they have made with something. Now come on you've accused me of making ridiculous statements so i would expect (although i understand your reluctance to want to enter into a debate) at least one very simple example of a ridiculous statement i have made.
My mind has always been open to a variety of possibilities in respect of the "rigging" even as far as FT may well not be rigged. Ive made that clear many times, so please explain the closed mind. Yes ive put forward a number of theories some of which have been rightly dismissed and others that haven't been proven either way. What have you put forward? in three posts not much.
You have argued that FT wouldn't risk a jail term by entering into a rigging scam and all i asked was could you please enlighten me as to who exactly would face jail and who would be doing the prosecuting?
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terry19660401
Full House
Joined: 17 Apr 2009
Posts: 236
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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| fletch_smf wrote: |
| terry19660401 wrote: |
| The point of the post was to highlight the weakness of the "why would FT risk it" argument. We are not talking about a charitable organisation here, FT sole purpose is to make as much profit as possible, so if it was possible to rig the RNG to a point where it was virtually unnoticeable to the players but increase FT's profits by even a minute margin they would do it. |
I disagree with that. The fact that they could break the "law" to increase profit does not mean they would. |
Sorry Fletch but what law would they be breaking, this is an internet based business, with the company registered i believe in Gibraltar. What and who's law would FT be breaking? (now i will admit im not totally clued up on the legal aspect of internet business so am happy to be enlightened)
| fletch_smf wrote: |
| terry19660401 wrote: |
| So i think we should stick with the "is FT rigged" and if so "how" and refrain from the "why would they do it" |
Except that "Why?" is the crux of the argument. A lot of money and man hours would have had to go in to designing the RNG, and they need to recoup all that they spend on it, before they can make a profit. To have that outlay for a system that may or may not increase profit is bad business. They would have needed to work out how much profit they could make from it before they spent any money on building it. Then put that against the risk of the damages that would be done if they were caught. |
I agree with your statement above fletch in as such that greed would be the motivation (Why?), however as we dont know the fiqures involved for outlay and return we cant get a definative answer. I would also point out that the unusual events/deals/scenarios may well be because of a flaw within the RNG which doesn't benefit FT at all, i have always said that was a possibility. |
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CruelHandLuke
High Card
Joined: 24 Sep 2009
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| full tilt likes to give my pennies to other players all the time... it's fixed and it should be fixed so it isn't fixed... ya know? lol |
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fletch_smf
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 06 Jun 2008
Posts: 4501
Location: Brisneyland
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| Posted: Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| OrieJr wrote: |
| Quote: |
Now lets have the look how much rake a site makes if both players win 50$.
If the withdraw player gets 50$ these are withdrawn. These 50$ produces no rake in the future.
If the investor wins 50$ he can double up his buy-in or blind-levels. This results in doubling (approximately) the rake of a player for the site. The 50$ produces still rake for the site.
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You are forgetting that the withdraw player is a winning player and constantly has money deposited to win more with. |
This. The rake of a site is really paid by the losing players, as they are the ones continuously depositing. |
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