Online Poker Forum - interesting hand

cesteves · Guest

This hand happened about a year ago at the final table of a 250 man NL online tournament (only $5 entry), on pokerroom. I still wonder if I played this hand correctly or not.

There were seven people left, and I was 2nd in chips, with about 60k. The chip leader was directly to my right and had around 65k, everyone else had between 10 and 40k, spread pretty evenly. Blinds were 1500-3k.

I was in 4th position with JJ. The players in 1st and 2nd position both limped (at a full table and under normal circumstances I would be worried about the strength of their hands, but they were loose and limped constantly). The chip leader then moved all in.

I felt extremely confident that he had a medium pocket pair, anywhere from 77-1010. He simply would not have moved in with AK, AQ or KQ. He would have just raised. I knew it was extremely stupid to call the only player that could knock me out, even with jj, in that position. But I was sure the first 2 guys had garbage and this guy had a lower pocket pair, thus i was a 4-1 favorite to double up. If I won the hand I obviously would be a huge favorite to win the whole tournament.

So I called. Everyone else did fold, and he showed 1010. All I remember is that he flopped a 10, and I lost. And to this day I have wondered if I made the right call or not. I think that considering the other players did fold and he did have a lower pp, 4-1 odds was good enough to risk going broke. However, adding in the fact that I could have been wrong, and he could of had a higher pp, or overcards, the hand becomes more complicated.

What do you guys think?

BOYNAMEDSUE · Moderator Joined: 27 Jun 2005 Posts: 9542 Location: Mypos

I think if your sole motive for winning the tourney was money than you should have laid it down. You're right; JJ isn't strong enough a hand to go broke with.

But if your motive is to improve with every tournament, and you really thought your JJ was good (good analysis btw), than you call. Good tournament players play to win. Average tournament players play to not lose.

You were right, and had you won the hand you would have been a monster chips leader. That's playing to win! A similar thing happened to Phil Hellmuth during the 2003 WSOP.

Jason Lester was short-stacked, and had JJ. If he raised, and was re-raised, he would have to call (he really needed to double-up), so he instead just went all-in off the bat. If he had KK he would have only raised, hoping to get re-raised. Hellmuth knew this, and put him on a hand like TT or JJ and called, with QQ. Lester hit his J on the river, and Hellmuth was crippled.

Hellmuth could have folded QQ, but he knew he was ahead, so he called.

He was playing to win.

goomlah · Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 3:35 pm Post subject: Boynamedsue called it perfectly

Forget money for a second (which always helps, mind you).

Your goal is to try to win every tournament possible by making the best decision you can based on the information you get on every hand. You thought the guy had pocket 7's to pocket 10's. If you're going to put him on this hand, you have to put your money in and try to win the tournament.

He could have made the move with AK, AQ, heck probably even QQ, considering the other chip stacks on the table. His move was probably to isolate one of them and eliminate another player. If you put him on AK/AQ, not many people would call in this situation, and I have a feeling you wouldn't either. (I think I would call, but I tend to gamble more than most).

In other words, good call, bad result

Jaconda78 · Moderator Joined: 06 Jul 2005 Posts: 4179

If he has TT, you are correct to call. Your thinking to put him on that medium pocket pair was solid, and you were right - good play. You just got unlucky.

idontknow · Guest

All the above points are valid without doubt. But one thing thats not been mentioned is the fact that on final tables the money increases quite exponentially. And you may not make another final table for awhile. Despite your good read on the guy you could have been in a 50/50 ish situation (i am sure he would have played AK the same way) or worse he had a better hand. Since this guy was the only player at the table that could bust you and you werent getting to see a flop with your JJ, you could have passed. In doing so you let others get knocked out first and u can take these 50/50 situations (or 4-1) situations with people that wont bust you in 1 hand.
Of course if your stack was one of the shorter ones at the table then the decision is obvious thats to play.
Personally I hate jacks anyway, and i can quite understand why a guy on another site is called ImuckJJ.
GL (fold jacks more so if your on 'party')

Zog · Guest

mistaken69 · Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:47 pm Post subject:

hmmm....you where playing to win, made a nice read, he caught a card, ballgame over. nh, youll win that hand most of the time.

bashtoreth · Guest

Here's my opinion:

If I were the chip leader, I might have done the same with AA, KK, or AKs. Here's why: At the final table, the middle stacks are often terrified of going up against the chip leader with their entire stacks, and a lot of prize money, on the line. (Of course, there are some who would call just on the off-chance that they could double up.) Also, given their table position, there was a good possibility one of them had enough of a hand to actually call. As a result I would have probably watched someone else call and then safely see my lead go out the window on the flop. Smile

Of course, I tend to be fairly cautious in those situations. And there's always the possibility that everyone thinks I'm wrong. Smile

Mmkay123456 · Full House Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 203

[quote="BOYNAMEDSUE"] Good tournament players play to win. Average tournament players play to not lose.

GREAT point!! Just wanted to point it out. A lot of people can learn from this!

P.S. is this a saying or did u make it up on the spot?

jjsoapdish · Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 3:25 am Post subject: Re: interesting hand

You should be proud of yourself because you had the right read on him, but like Hellmuth always says. "I try to only move all of my chips in when I absolutely have to, otherwise I am letting luck play in front of my skill"

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