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Moshiach
Message Board Junkie
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
Posts: 4550
Location: Vic, Australia
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 Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: Looking for some basic advice. |
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So I've started playing Stud recently at low limits and need some basic advice.
At the moment, preflop I'm sticking to sequential hands (678), 1 gappers (JQA), pairs (JJ8), trips (888) and any 3 cards of the same suit. What hands should I be hanging around with when someone's door card is one of my outs? e.g. I have JQK and someone has an Ace, or I have AAT and there's a Ten out there.
Another problem is my play postflop... or whatever it's called, post 3rd street? Either way, I've noticed in Stud you'll be drawing a lot to make your hand, and you won't usually make it till 6th or 7th, so there's got to be a lot of checking/betting/raising with nothing but a draw. It's a lot easier with a pair drawing to 2-pair or trips, but with straight and flush draws I always feel like I'm either a calling station or I'm firing money out on a unlikely draw.
e.g. I have J93 of Spades, my opponent has an Ace showing, I complete and get a 6s my opponent gets a Jc. I bet, he calls, I get a 2h and my opponent gets a Ts... now I feel screwed and have no idea what I'm doing.
I don't know on which draws where I should be betting and when I should slow down, bluffing doesn't really come into it at these levels, but any advice you can give, throw at me. |
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mathman1115
Wizard of Odderation
Joined: 01 Sep 2005
Posts: 3753
Location: Land of the Fightin' Phillies
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Looking for some basic advice. |
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| Moshiach wrote: |
So I've started playing Stud recently at low limits and need some basic advice.
At the moment, preflop I'm sticking to sequential hands (678), 1 gappers (JQA), pairs (JJ8), trips (888) and any 3 cards of the same suit. What hands should I be hanging around with when someone's door card is one of my outs? e.g. I have JQK and someone has an Ace, or I have AAT and there's a Ten out there.
Another problem is my play postflop... or whatever it's called, post 3rd street? Either way, I've noticed in Stud you'll be drawing a lot to make your hand, and you won't usually make it till 6th or 7th, so there's got to be a lot of checking/betting/raising with nothing but a draw. It's a lot easier with a pair drawing to 2-pair or trips, but with straight and flush draws I always feel like I'm either a calling station or I'm firing money out on a unlikely draw.
e.g. I have J93 of Spades, my opponent has an Ace showing, I complete and get a 6s my opponent gets a Jc. I bet, he calls, I get a 2h and my opponent gets a Ts... now I feel screwed and have no idea what I'm doing.
I don't know on which draws where I should be betting and when I should slow down, bluffing doesn't really come into it at these levels, but any advice you can give, throw at me. |
I think your starting hand selection might be a little too loose, especially since you are just starting out.
For example, playing a hand like 678 could be dangerous. First of all, make sure 5s and 9s (and Ts and 4s) are mostly live, as you will need them as part of your str8. Second of all, pay attention to what else is out there, especially when 4th and 5th street come out. If you see a 9TQ out or even just a TJ out, you are in danger of losing to a higher str8 even if you do hit. Paying for draws in stud is almost always correct because of pot growth, but i think a lot of people lose money in stud because they end up drawing to a losing hand. Another problem with 678 is that you may miss your str8 cards, but find yourself pairing one of them and then getting sucked into the hand. Small pairs do not play well in stud. Finally, a hand like 678 when you have to act early on 3rd is bad too, especially if you have high doorcards waiting to act after you. I wouldn't want to pay much more than a bring in to play a hand like 678.
A hand like J93 of spades is tempting too, but quite weak. You're only shot here is a flush, so your spades have to be almost all live throughout 3rd, 4th, and 5th street. Pairs aren't going to help much here, and a str8 is not likely. Again, i wouldn't pay too much to see the next couple cards if i can help it, and if it does get expensive and i don't have the 4 flush on 4th street, i probably dump it. Also, its another situation where you have to pay attention. You may be sitting there with 4 spades (J high), but an opponent could have 3 diamonds showing with a K or A. You are running the risk of paying to hit your flush, hitting it on 7th, and then finding out that it is no good because it loses to a higher flush.
As far as betting draws, i like to mix it up. Basically, if i don't feel that i can win by betting, i would rather check call with draws. It keeps players in, and prevents me from getting raised. You want the pot to grow as much as possible when you are chasing in stud. Of course, if i am heads up with a decent draw, i'll probably keep betting in hopes that i win without a showdown.
Also, remember to not just value your hand based on what you have. You have to pay attention to what is out there. If you complete with JJ8, and then a Q calls you, and then an A raises, you can be pretty sure you are toast. Even if your Js are live, its going to cost you a lot to see if you can catch one.
Again, always remember in stud that it is ok to chase a hand, as long as you can be pretty sure that it will end up the BEST hand at showdown. And yes, you will have to showdown quite often in stud. It is a complicated game because you want multiple players in when you are chasing a draw, but with multiple players in, it makes draws vulnerable to better draws, so you need a good combination of keeping players in and getting players out, which can be tough (for example, with 5678, i may raise to try and get rid of a JT. I don't want him accidentally stumbling on a higher str8 if i hit mine). Playing thousands of hands and getting the experience is the best way to improve your stud game. |
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Strasse
Forum ***
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 7031
Location: Houston, TX
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| Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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| I agree with everything mathman said, but wanted to add something. You mention hands like AQJ. I HATE these types of hands, and they most commonly the hands that get overplayed. I will usually NEVER play these if someone has completed in front of me, and I will usually only complete them if nobody has limped in front of me and the only door cards left behind me are lower than a jack. The reason is that even if you only up against a hand like a pair of 7s, you will be drawing to your higher pair, but they could still easily hit a second pair, keeping you behind in the hand the whole way. KQJ and QJT however are a different story, since your straight possibilities go way up. With a hand like AQJ, you have to hit perfect perfect to get your straight. Even with something like KJT, you still have to hit your perfect queen in the gut. I really hate hands where you have to hit the perfect gut, and they are another hand that gets overplayed. Anyways, with the KQJ and QJT, you have the straight possibilities and the high pair possibilities, and I will usually play these hands quite strong, unless a lot of my cards are out, or someone else is showing a lot of strength already. So to summarize, AQJ, AKQ, AQT, AJT, KJT, etc. are crappy hands, never play them if there is a completion in front of you, they are basically only ante stealing hands. |
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IAmTheVietcong
Straight Flush
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 355
Location: College
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| Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Looking for some basic advice. |
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| Moshiach wrote: |
So I've started playing Stud recently at low limits and need some basic advice.
At the moment, preflop I'm sticking to sequential hands (678), 1 gappers (JQA), pairs (JJ8), trips (888) and any 3 cards of the same suit. What hands should I be hanging around with when someone's door card is one of my outs? e.g. I have JQK and someone has an Ace, or I have AAT and there's a Ten out there.
Another problem is my play postflop... or whatever it's called, post 3rd street? Either way, I've noticed in Stud you'll be drawing a lot to make your hand, and you won't usually make it till 6th or 7th, so there's got to be a lot of checking/betting/raising with nothing but a draw. It's a lot easier with a pair drawing to 2-pair or trips, but with straight and flush draws I always feel like I'm either a calling station or I'm firing money out on a unlikely draw.
e.g. I have J93 of Spades, my opponent has an Ace showing, I complete and get a 6s my opponent gets a Jc. I bet, he calls, I get a 2h and my opponent gets a Ts... now I feel screwed and have no idea what I'm doing.
I don't know on which draws where I should be betting and when I should slow down, bluffing doesn't really come into it at these levels, but any advice you can give, throw at me. |
Flop...definitely a hold'em player 
You're playing way too loose on third street. Limit your hands to split big pairs (jacks or better), wired mid/high pairs with big kickers, three high cards to a straight/flush and rolled up hands. Of course, this is all dependent upon the upcards out. For example, it's generally correct to fold kings if both of your kings are dead and one of your kicker cards is dead unless it is very cheap to get in. I'd fold jacks on third if I saw a queen, king and ace behind me.
If you have four cards to a flush by fourth street and all of your spades are live, you have about a 50% chance to complete the draw. I don't like playing small flush hands unless the price is very cheap. At least with big flushes, your overcards might also give you a winning hand along with the flush cards. Ditto for straights. You rarely get that fourth card to a straight, especially if some of those cards are dead. And pairing up could easily make you a second best hand and induce you to call all the way down. |
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