Online Poker Forum - Building a bankroll at low limits

St8FlushKing · Two Pair Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 57

I'm not offended but there are good players that are in the red in tourney's but far outperform others in ring games. Don't always go by a players stats if your fishing for a donkey...[/quote]

wasnt fishing. Dont like to touch the worms. What i found funny was all the posts i read, and the players stats i checked, said they won all there money from T's not ring games. I should not have posted that post. I was in a bad mood that day. Im really a nice guy. And I dont check peoples stats that i play with unless they start running off at the mouth about how good they are and how much they win. Thanks.

komp96 · High Card Joined: 09 Mar 2009 Posts: 1

yah i stay away from cash games

St8FlushKing · Two Pair Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 57

If you are fond of the Full Tilt MTT's or SNG's, like i am. Dont play the ones on pokerstars. Everyone i played in i got sucked out on the river. Last one i was in had AQ off. Flop 8 q a. Had a 6500 stack. 32 people left in a 90 seat sng. i bet 1500 into a 1500 pot. turn was a 2. i bet 2000. The only one left in the pot only had 1800. He calls, had kk. Can you say domination? River k, he hit his 2 outer. Brought me down to 3200. Next hand had qj off in BB. No one raised. flop qqj. Hit the full house. Guy bets 2000. I go all in. he calls. he has a q off. Turn 10. river A. His hand QQQAA my hand QQQJJ. Im out. In 2 hands i went from 2nd place with around 7000 to being out. 2 pair agianst set on ther river. Full agiant a better full on the river. This is bogus.
And i will tell you the best one. Pocket QQ.
River q 6 2
I bet the pot. 1 caller
turn 8
i bet the pot
river 4
i go all in. 1 caller.
The caller has 75
How does some one call a pot sized raise with 75 on the flop? With my set the only thing that would have made him win was the 8 and the 4 runner runner. Or 8 9 runner runner. or 4 3 runner runner. Any way you look at it he had to have runner runner to beat me. AND HE GOT IT. How does someone put there T life on the line with 75? Its almost like he knew what was coming. And no im not saying internet poker is rigged.

Hash1982 · High Card Joined: 26 Feb 2009 Posts: 14

DforDissent · Royal Flush Joined: 30 Mar 2009 Posts: 669

Pick a variant and play just that for a week (or a month)... notice if you are consistently putting the opponent to a test and/or making them call without odds to hit their miracle cards (if you are getting sucked out on "more" than you think you "should", that's just your subjective opinion).

If you don't notice this, chances are you are playing opponents that are equal or better than you in skill level. You might win big sometimes, but overall your $/hr will be lower if you keep playing against them (though your "skill level" will, arguably, improve to a level it wouldn't against the weaker players). If over that week or month you realize there's no "edge" then take a complete break from that game. Try another one, lather rinse repeat.

Once you find "your game" start keeping some serious records -- ROI, ITM%, $/hr, etc. and try multi-tabling only after you've got a "baseline" of records of these stats, then see if those stats go down disproportionately ... and if the $/hr goes up (even if the ROI goes down somewhat). Find that "sweet spot" for # of tables.

And keep at it. Play live poker for "fun", play online for profit -- which is why in the end $/hr matters more than win rate.

Oh and PS: if you are "bored", playing smaller sessions and taking breaks and getting out of the house will recharge you. Don't be tempted to play a different variant (i.e. cash games for the tournament crusher) to experience the rush of "action" or just the novelty of it, because the variance will be different than what you are used to, and you will get out-played or out-drawn and quite possibly go on tilt and thus hurt your BR (possibly in a snowball effect).

After you've got a relatively consistent "expectation" of your stats, try a single new variant, mixing it in with your bread and butter. Drop it like a hot potato if you find you feel out-classed by the regulars there. You might end up sticking to just one game, and that is okay -- Gus Hansen is an amazing NLHE tournament player, but he hates Razz and sucks at it, and some would say that Tom McAvoy is the opposite. Be happy with yourself and your specialty.

Another PS: all this is just off the top of my head (so I apologize for the stream-of-consciousness nature of it) but it's based on my own objective success since December of 2008.

I had gotten tired of the small-but-regular re-deposit I was doing every month, and reflect on what game variant I enjoyed playing and where I felt there was the possiblity of the biggest "edge".

Holdem, not even LIMIT holdem, was sadly not that variant.

But I did enjoy playing Razz, but I thought that the ring games were too slow and high variance, hard to get good players to "chase bad", and so frustrating when the maniac actually *had* a hand this time, etc. So I decided to focus entirely on Razz headsup. And soon I did pretty darn well in the lower buyin SnG, but then based on that success -- and noticing how many mistakes the average opponent was making -- I thought I could easily crush the cash headsup games too.

My BR went up and down huge amounts (often 25% in one 3 hour session) beacause often I would end up playing against worse players, who made horrible mistakes, but a few really bad streaks of miracle rivers + going on tilt for their mistakes + "I don't want to leave this game, I'll win long-term" = 3 or 4 buyins gone, then they would sit out or leave and I would go on tilt and soon my BR was crippled. But those days I got lucky and beat the good players, and the bad players called light on the river or missed their miracles, my BR went up enough when I was convinced this was "the game" for me.

But a few of those "down" 25% sessions, and I had to face reality -- cash HU is "not for me". So I "quit". And I humbly started back at the lowest Razz SnG-2 and only played those games. And I haven't played cash Razz HU since (other than Play Money, when trying out some strategies Wink

) -- though I sometimes still miss the "rush" of felting a better play 2 or 3 times and hearing them swear at me when *they* are on tilt.

I'm now at the "middle" buyins of Razz HU SnG and am trying to figure out if the highest buyins are "worth it" in terms of $/hr. But more about that later -- re. stats and analyzing your game.

Also about a month ago I had done a lot of reading and based on that decided to give the Turbo NLHE-9 SnG a shot... So I am presently working on finding out which buyin level in both of these variants is the "sweet spot" for me, re. $/hr .

So I guess here's my "advice", and it's more general than my specific experience I detailed above:

Focusing in this way, selecting and then concentrating on "one variant" for a period of time, and analyzing honestly the impact of these choices (like buyin level, # of tables, session duration etc.) on your hourly profit, is a very subjective personal thing, and only you can "know" where your best comfortzone-hourlyrate "harmony" is found. But it's important you do it, or you will be grinding for weeks and months and even years without getting anywhere (and not really having "fun" either, since losing $ long-term is not fun).

So cut out those other variants, the ones that aren't getting YOU anwhere. Focus only on that one game.

Because in only a handful of weeks of ME doing this -- and now including a second variant, party for "variety" sake but also because of $/hr potential -- is the only thing that has given me consistent "up growth" in my BR graph ... in 3 years of online play.

PPS: by "variant", I hope it's obvious but if it's not:
I mean to choose a single combination of: [SnG/tourney/cash/satellite , full-ring/6max/headsup , turbo/non-turbo/300chipturbo , and most importantly LHE/NLHE/PLHE/PL omahahi/Limit omaha-hilo/PL omaha-hilo/NL omaha-hilo/studhi/studhilo/razz/HORSE] because somewhere in those combinations there is a game that has a lot of bad players and "fits" you -- fits with your personality, your mental/math ability, your tilt vulnerability, your "speed of action" addiction, etc. GL in finding it, but remember "if you believe you will fail, you are correct. If you believe you will succeed, you are correct."

...I apologize for the book chapter I ended up typing in here. I guess I was in the mood for "reflecting" Wink

HTH!

Steve Auger · High Card Joined: 29 Nov 2008 Posts: 4

Steve Auger · High Card Joined: 29 Nov 2008 Posts: 4

absolutely brutal suggestion!!! other than keeping stats, you have zero point. wow !!!

paumarhas · High Card Joined: 27 Oct 2007 Posts: 6

this was well worth my time. a lot of good info here. mathman you wrote some great advice. Smile

it reminds me why i love this game, the excitment, thrill of getting that great hand, and $$$. Laughing

it is for certain that when you move to next level and go into different games it increases adrenaline and keeps me more alert.
thanks guys Very Happy

StrikingEagle · Posted: Thu Apr 09, 2009 11:12 am Post subject:

I had a disastours beginning. Lost a lot of $$ because I didn't know what
I was doing. After many re-deposits I joined the Full Tilt Poker Academy
and began studying poker.

In addition I am practicing Chris Ferguson' bankroll management rules
and above all discipline. The later cannot be stressed enough.
As a result I have shown a profit recently.

Purchased Hold'em Manager to help track my progress so April 2009 is
the only month with data, but is not historically accurate.

I still experience the terrible downs and now and upward movement all
above spoke of. The cash tables, even micro limit, the only level I play at,
are very difficult for me. I have had some good wins at these tables, but
most often I loose money that I have won in SnG and tourneys almost
breaking even. So I play these table as little as possible.

Problem is to complete challenges playing at cash tables is often a
requirement. Quite the delima for me.

So right now my bankroll has increased amost 75% due to a 2nd place
tourney win ($3.30 fixed limit tourney). I entered fixed limit by mistake.
Maybe that's what helped my win. Difficult to make terrible raising errors.

Thougt I'd post my graphs of April (again only April 2009 is showing)

Cash = cash games
Tourney = mostly SnG's, one MTT

lets see if this works
well I cant figure out how to post graphs. oh well.
Thanks for reading. Many excellent advice and posts here. Helped me a lot.

ALB4PREZ · High Card Joined: 28 Feb 2009 Posts: 1

all these guys say alot ill keep it simple since i came from freerolling 60 cent rebuy satt. to double duce then unregiister u win 7/10 of those 20 times a day u rolll fast and gamble hard neff said

All in on Ace Q · Pair Joined: 14 Apr 2009 Posts: 25

I started playing poker a couple of years ago but did not take it at all seriously until about Dec 2008, when started to break even on 5c/10c NLHE at PartyPoker. I didn't have many MTT cashes at that time either and SNG's were a bit hit and miss.

I joined FTP in Jan 09 and made a couple of deposits, but I have studied hard in the last few months and have made a recent $1300 profit. MTT's are my best game, but I know it is early days.

I've just donked $40 on a cash game 5 mins ago... bloody cash games!

farkashazi · High Card Joined: 04 May 2009 Posts: 3

lurgertor · Posted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:10 pm Post subject:

I've been playing on Fulltilt for real money almost a year now. I decided to deposit $50 for my starting bankroll For the first couple of months I had no idea what I was doing. I would play in a tourney or a cash game just because I could, but I did get lucky enough to cash big in one of the first tourneys I played for a $50 profit, so I withdrew $50 because at the time this was just for fun. I started moving up in stakes to around $10 buy-ins and within a week I was down to $30 so I returned to around $5 tourneys and 5cent,10cent cash games where in about two more weeks I managed to lose about 98% of my bankroll.

I let the money just sit there for about three months then I discovered the 1000 Garantee for 10cent buy ins and 50cent rebuys and started playing them. I would cash there about one 8th of the time but never really made it deep enough to have anything above $2. After a month or so I eventually went through everything I had left on Fulltilt. So I went back to playing freerolls which I was playing in before I made my deposit. I managed to cash a few times and decided to try out the heads up matches, a few wins and I was up to $12 then I went into a downswing and again had less than a dollar left on my account.

About a month ago two of my roomates started doing pretty well in 9 and 18 player Sit & Gos, they had a combined profit of around $50 from a $15 and $10 deposit. So I gave one of my roomates $10 and he transferred $10 to my account. By this point I had read a lot of articles about bankroll management and while $10 isn't a lot I wanted to be smart with it and decided the best strategy is to play the 1cent and 2cent games because the minimum buy in was 40 cents which I figured wasn't too bad of a risk and play the occasional sit & go. My money went up and down and I found the ring games to be increasingly frusterating. So I started playing the 1000 Garantee and $1 Sit & Gos more regularly and managed to cash often enough to be breaking even, though wasn't getting great results in either game. I still made a couple big cashes and along with cashing in the Fulltilt academy freeroll I was starting to show a profit. At the time I was getting sick of Fultilt because it seemed I would have been doing so much better if I didn't get so unlucky so I decided to withdraw all my money and only play online if I'm bored and then in the freerolls.

Then about two weeks ago I finished in first place in a freeroll and $15 dollars was deposited into my account. So I went back to the 1000 Garantee and 1 dollar Sit & Gos because thats what I seem to be best at. For about a week I found myself around what I started with. I decided then, screw the bankroll rules this isn't my money I wanna play in a Ftops mini event so I played in four satilites for about a dollar each and got nowhere, normally I would say this is a good time for restructuring, but I didn't care; it's not my money! So I played in another satilite, this time for $1.5 with rebuys, 1.25 each, so after investing over half my bankroll I won a seat into Ftops mini event #17 for $33. Very Happy

I quickly realized that there is no way I can justify playing in this event so I immidiately unregistered and singed up to the Ftops mini event #1 for $22, leaving me with $15 bankroll. I used those $15 to start playing the $1 Sit & Gos and the occasional 10cent tourney, where I started showing immidiate results, after two days I was up to $20. Then yesterday I finished in 5th place in the 1000 Garantee for $86. Anyways I decided to not play in the Ftops mini event #1 because even with that win yesterday its still too much of my bankroll, so I withdrew the money and plan on trying out the $3 Sit & Gos and most of the $1 MTTs out there.

Anyways I learned a lot from my experiences on Fulltilt. Probably the most important thing if you want to make money in the micro stakes is to have a plan. Of course there is no point in planning if you have no idea what is available, so if you're kind off new to the game, or just new to Fultilt I suggest trying a few things out and see what you do best in and then focus on that. It is best to record to your results so you can see most clearly where you skills lie. It also helps to listen and learn from those who already know what they're doing. Besides that always be ontop of your game.

I hope you learned something and good luck (unless you're playing against me) Wink

.

erK005 · High Card Joined: 10 May 2009 Posts: 3

I never made a deposit on FTP. I now have made over $1000. How?

I started out cashing in one razz freeroll (I made $2), my first razz tourney ever. I lost $1.25 of it playing a Hold'em 45 player SNG, so I did not have enough to play SNGs with. I kept trying again, and I eventually cashed in another Razz freeroll (for $2).

This second time, after many hours of freerolls, I decided not to be stupid. Since I finished in the top 1% of razz freeroll players and I cashed in my first ever razz tourney (the 1st freeroll), I decided to stick with razz instead of hold'em. I played the razz $1 buy in 8 handed SNG's and cashed almost every time until I made over $20. I then moved up limits to the $2 razz 8-handed SNG's, and continued to increase my bankroll to about $50. I then played a mixture of hold'em and razz to continue slowly building my bankroll.

My big jumps in bankroll have come from razz MTT's. I have cashed in the $5, $10, and $24 razz MTT's. I think I took 2nd place in the first $5 razz tourney that I ever played. The $24 MTT were, and still are above the 1% bankroll rule. I am however, very well disciplined and extremely patient, two VERY IMPORTANT traits to both a winning razz and poker player. I have been fortunate enough to have extremely low variance for both a MTT player and a razz player. I have a 76% ROI and a 42% ITM overall. For razz, I have a 186% ROI and 58% ITM. These stats (if these are wrong, someone please let me know), put me among the 2.5% highest ranked players on FTP. Many of the razz MTT I play I cash in; and most of the time I make the final table. I usually go on to place within the top 3 spots. This has really boosted my bankroll.

Although I sometimes played outside of Chris Ferguson's ideal Bankroll suggestions, I think I played with good bankroll discipline. If you want to build a bankroll you MUST play with discipline. Most of the time, I actually play under the bankroll suggestions. I still will play $5 MTT and $1-$2 SNG's for both hold'em and razz. I feel if I can make any amount of money playing cards while sitting down in front of a computer it is worth doing. I only moved from $1 razz SNG's to $2 razz SNG's when I was completely crushing the $1 SNG's. It was also difficult to consistently find players for the $1 SNG's, probably do to the $.25 c rake.

Even though I have played slightly "over" my bankroll at times, I never risked very much. I may have even been more profitable at the $2 SNG's do to the $.25c rake being identical at both the $1 and $2 levels. The $10 and $24 MTT's are what have really jumped my bankroll up, cashing from $50 up to over $300 at a time (even though they were too high for my bankroll).

I hope to be the 2nd (of my knowledge) player to go from $0 to $10,000. I didn't read the 12 pages of post before me, so I'm not sure if anyone else has done it besides Jesus. Most of the people seemed to have deposited some small amount then turned it into a fortune. My brother has also started from $0 and is now into the $200-$300 range. Please let me know if you have turned a freeroll into a large profit!

With good bankroll management and discipline, you too can make a lot of money online for free!
-erK005 Very Happy

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